how do i change ceiling rose to spotlights/downlights?

[cooa99]

Hi all,

I currently have a single ceiling rose in the living room. I would like to change to ceiling recessed spotlights.

This i guess means ripping up the floorboards upstairs to do the job. i am also thinking i would probably need 6 or 9 spotlights

Please can I have some ideas to what type of lights to to buy and wiring configurations. would i also be able to power thses lights from that single ceiling rose


Cheers

cooa99

 

[Steve]

It depends on the wiring at the ceiling rose.

Is this your idea, or SWMBO's?

If its SWMBO's, please try to convince her that halogen downlighters are a bad thing. They create too much heat, create pools of light on your floor, are too bright where they shine and not bright enough where they dont. A compromise would be to fit downlights with low energy or LED lamps. low energy CFLs dont have a beam like halogens, they flood with light instead. Good for task lighting (kitchen) but available in dimmable versions. LEDs use about 3 watts, and are good for mood lighting like you want in a lounge. LEDs are expensive, but you probably will never have to change them.

Whatever you do, dont install 12 volt systems with transformers. These arent comptaible with any CFLs or most LEDs.

 

[cooa99]

or would a sort of platform covering 80% of the square ceiling be better to embed the spotlights. Have no clue how to do that either!

 

[Steve]

They can normally be fitted between ceiling and floorboards. Unless you dont want to remove floorboards. The other option is to either pull the ceiling (old ceilings often dont take kindly to being peppered with holes), or as you say, create a dropped ceiling. With this option, you could also have pelmet lighting around the edges of the dropped section.

 

[cooa99]

It depends on the wiring at the ceiling rose.

Is this your idea, or SWMBO's?

If its SWMBO's, please try to convince her that halogen downlighters are a bad thing. They create too much heat, create pools of light on your floor, are too bright where they shine and not bright enough where they dont. A compromise would be to fit downlights with low energy or LED lamps. low energy CFLs dont have a beam like halogens, they flood with light instead. Good for task lighting (kitchen) but available in dimmable versions. LEDs use about 3 watts, and are good for mood lighting like you want in a lounge. LEDs are expensive, but you probably will never have to change them.

Whatever you do, dont install 12 volt systems with transformers. These arent comptaible with any CFLs or most LEDs.

it was my idea to put spotlights, i dont know what downlights look like so Im off to google

 

[cooa99]

ok after google, downlights are what I meant not spotlight,
so not to get 12volt systems, how will they get powered/voltage regulated from the ceiling rose. Can you recommend any good downlights

steve, do you have any links to building dropped ceiling just to see how much work is involved

Thanks guys for such speed replies!


cooa99

 

[Steve]

Well you'd need to expose significant amounts of joistwork, in order to bolt your structure to it. Unless you are thinking of a full area dropped ceiling, which covers the old ceiling entirely. Its a lot of work. You'd still need it plastering. IMO you'd be better pulling the old ceiling and fitting your lights, then getting it re-plastered. About £300-400, depending where you are. A good days work.

 

[ColJack]

dropped ceilings is basic carpentry..
screw battons to the existing into the ceiling joists and then make the box sections where you want it....

as for the connections..

your existing ceiling rose will look something like this.. ( possibly in red and black if old colours )

View media item 13602 or View media item 13604
to wire the downlights you need to take wires 3, 4 and 5 and put them into a single terminal block.
then wire 2 goes into the live and wires 6 and 7 into the neutral, and the earths to the earth..

then you link to all of the lights as shown below.

View media item 11287( drawing was originally for converting a fluorescent to downlights but it's the same thing. )

 

[cooa99]

Diagrams understood, cheers.
(1) Does that mean downlights dont have an earth wiring ?, looks like they run nowhere
(2) Since mentioned previously not to use 12volt downlights, what is the reason for this?.
Since this the diagrams shows a parallel circuit, Wont the overral current draw cause an overload?
(3) what cable sizes/# of cores should I use

an extract from 1 of the bbc pages was "... Without wall lights the effect can be gloomy ....", is that true?

suspended/dropped ceilings looks like a lot of work so might just stick to downlighters.


cheers


cooa99

 

[ColJack]

1. depends on the fitting.. if it requires a earth then use one..
2. the 12v downlights use a transformer.. which is just another part to go wrong.. we get quite a few posts asking about lights going off then back on again at random, or flashing etc.. usually the transformer gone..
3. 1.5 T+E..

 

[Steve]

an extract from 1 of the bbc pages was "... Without wall lights the effect can be gloomy ....", is that true?

Yes. They throw all their light downwards. You might as well paint your ceiling black. Traditional lighting on a pendant works because they throw half their light up and it bounces around off the ceiling.

Reason not to use 12v is because you'd need transformers, which is something to go wrong (and they do). And you could have difficulty dimming them (should you wish to do so)

 

[cooa99]

cheers guys,

Im not so sure the methods available for wiring. What i mean is do i run the cable from the rose to a junction box/block and then run cables for all the 6/9 light from there meaning all wires converge to the centre of the room where the rose is?clues to what type of connector blocks would be very helpfull


Im sure i'll have a few more questions when i get underway with the job


cheers

cooa99

 

[RF Lighting]

Reason not to use 12v is because you'd need transformers, which is something to go wrong (and they do). And you could have difficulty dimming them (should you wish to do so)

If you buy decent transformers, it is very unusual for them to go wrong. Dimming them is not a problem either, and the light produced by a 12V downlighter lamp is far superior to any other downlighter lamp currently on the market.

 

[Steve]

You will need a junction box behind each light. The boxes will need to be slim so that you can pull them down through the downlight hole and inspect them. For this reason there should also be a good few inches of slack on the cables. Standard twin and earth is fine, though you may find flex easier to wire into these junction boxes. They have cord grips.

Something like this:



This one allows you to unplug each downlight for ultra easy replacement and is cheaper:



They show twin and earth to the JB, then flex to the downlight, I suppose the best way to do it. Ideally at least 6 inches of flex, and 6 inches of slack on the cables. You need the JB to be a good distance from the downlight if you are using halogen lamps, because they get toasty hot.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I currently have a single ceiling rose in the living room.

What is the wattage of the bulb(s) in the light fitting?

am also thinking i would probably need 6 or 9 spotlights

So a range of 210 - 450 watts. (6 x35 - 9 x 50)

If that is more than you currently have see if that tells you anything about how inefficient those types of lights are. I don't mean the lumens/watt of the actual lamps - that may well be better than traditional ones, I mean how well they light the room with the amount of power they consume. There's another recent thread here from some guy who's got 750W of lighting just in his kitchen.

They are bad at lighting rooms because they are not designed to do that job, and fitting them would be a mistake. If you want low-profile flush or recessed lighting there are alternatives which will work much better than what are, in effect, mains-powered torches.