How much space required for this plant room?

No water meter , I have a gas meter though. :cry:

I'd of been cheeky and gone for a 15" bathe if the landlady wasn't checking. :LOL:
 
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Problem is Tony - you apply your own way of life onto people that simply won't live by it. My first two years at University didn't include a bath outside of going to home or girlfriend's homes.

I say balls to low water content baths. I want to wallow. today was a hard and dusty day. Made lounge than planned die to quacks and wives' friends (although she is the sassy one ;)).

If you are happy to pay the metered rate then fill yer boots.
 
its the obsession with two tanks I find odd..(series or parallel anyone?)

You are much better off with one big cylinder, one cylinder sensor (not thermostat) and a lower coil that can be opened when the demand is high and closed when the demand is low..

note though the coil size should be both bigger than the heat output of the single boiler.

Two cylinders on domestic installs that allow the use of the sensor (which enables the client to set an exact temperature) and automatically gives hot water priority (shutting down the heating to reheat the cylinder) aren't very common...if they exist at all..
 
GW it takes the same amount of heat to raise water say 1c how ever you do it..selecting the right components and managing the clients expectations would enable any one of us to be able to come up with a fit for purpose design that satisfies the clients needs...
 
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love how only 2 people are suggesting using one cylinder and the only reason for that is because thats the only way they know how to get weather compensation. God forbid you dont buy all your equipment with the same name on it :LOL: This thread is really amusing keep it up.
 
Reverse return Secondary circuit Alec, simple natural blending.

2 x 210ltr cylinders is a far better option than one 500ltr and certainly a lot more cost affective.

Be interesting to see Tony's 28Kw trying to heat 38 radiators and 400Ltrs of hot water.

It was always going to go that way Micky, once the opentherm experts got involved.

:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for all the input.

My needs/demands seem to be getting lost a bit, somewhat like Chinese whispers. :D

Can I just outline what they are again so that we are all clear?

1) Two 15-20 minute showers need to be taken at the same time in the morning. At the same time a sink may need to be filled for washing face/shaving/dishes etc

The system needs to be able to cope with this day in day out with no discernible drop of water temp or flow rates.

2) Now comes the second set of showers. In other words there are two more people who will need to shower. They can wait a little while ie 15 minutes or so for the water temp to recover but not much longer than this.
These will also be 15-20 minute showers.

After this morning rush there is not much peak demand again. We don't tend to shower/bathe in the evening after work.

So in essence four people need to shower in two sets all in a short period of time during which a sink will need to be used as well.

It would be nice to run three showers (plus sink) at the same time BUT if this is going to cause a disproportionate rise in cost, complexity and space needed then I might leave that alone.

Also as I mentioned in terms of heating

1) 30 odd rads.

2) Approx 3500sqft

3) At least 50% of the building walls will retain the original uninsulated non cavity walls.


Many thanks
 
Be interesting to see Tony's 28Kw trying to heat 38 radiators and 400Ltrs of hot water.

:rolleyes:

I have left the 30cdi to do the heating. I would also recommend two 300 li as that makes little difference to the cost and gives added resillience to HW supplies.

But the 28 kW is only needed for water heating for 90 min a day! So could be used for heating as well if its really cold.

Note we have no proper information on mains water dynamic flow rate so a large storage is expected to be needed. Thats big.

Tony
 
its the obsession with two tanks I find odd..(series or parallel anyone?)

You are much better off with one big cylinder, one cylinder sensor (not thermostat) and a lower coil that can be opened when the demand is high and closed when the demand is low.

One big cylinder, plus plate heat exchanger; DHW circulation system . The water stored in the cylinder is there as a thermal store, to level out the peaks in the demand for heat, which could exceed the heat output of the boiler(s). IMHO it would be daft to base DHW storage capacity on the theoretical peak demand, which will occur infrequently, if ever. The OP could install the essential plant with the intent of upgrading later (e.g., mains fed, later install a break tank and booster set if/when it proves inadequate) to see whether it is usable. I'd rather risk waiting 10 minutes for a shower occasionally rather than have a break tank and pump set in my house.

The cylinder temperature control would probably be by a sensor, but since the control valve would not be modulating, the control system would make it operate in much the same way as a thermostat.
 
Some intelligent numbers for the OP, not fact number but close for the sake of the discussion.

Lets assume a good ish shower @ 12ltrs min, the normal split for is 60/40.
Therefore 1 min will use 6ltrs hot and 4 ltrs cold.

Going on that two 20min shower will use 120Ltr of hot water and 80ltrs of cold, easily within the scope of 2 x 210Ltr cylinders.

4 showers 240Ltrs hot and 160ltrs cold, still well within the capacity

Now for the clever bit that everyone is forgetting, Recovery.

Most modern cylinders with high input coils have a recovery of 15-20min.

Therefore whilst you are in the shower for 20mins the boilers have replaced virtually what you have used, and you are ready to go again indefinitely.
 
I mentioned 70kW as the heat transfer rate of each coil in a Viessmann Vitocell 300-B twin coil 500 litre cylinder. Naturally, this may or may not be the central heating load for the building. I don't see the sense in paired smaller cyls when you can buy a 500 litre of such quality [and Viessmann sell the twin coil cheaper than the single coil].

Similarly with boilers, two boilers will need a proper cascade controller for proper control. A single Vitodens 200-W of appropriate output for the central heating will control up to four zones including dhw [plus solar] without additional devices.

It is time for the OP to enter into serious discussions with a competent installer .

As I said Alec would be my last choice, A, I know his work and B, more importantly the tunnel vision demonstrated in the above post.

As Micky said same manufacturer or you control freaks are lost. Dare mention 2 x 30Kw boilers and you can see the panic set in.

I/we know Alec's infatuation with opentherm etc from the Combustion Chamber forum. One size doesn't fit all, and neither does one product.
 
Disclaimer - I'm not a plumber or heating engineer, just someone with an "engineering mind" and some DIY experience ...

My needs/demands seem to be getting lost a bit, somewhat like Chinese whispers. :D

Can I just outline what they are again so that we are all clear?

...

So in essence four people need to shower in two sets all in a short period of time during which a sink will need to be used as well.

It would be nice to run three showers (plus sink) at the same time BUT if this is going to cause a disproportionate rise in cost, complexity and space needed then I might leave that alone.
Since all the options revolve around stored hot water, there is (for heat calculations) no limit to how fast you can draw that off. So it's not a huge difference whether you run 2, 3, or 4 showers at once. What it does make a big difference to is the required flow rate - which impacts heavily on the amount of water you'll need to store, and the size of pipework and pumps.

So to support more simultaneous showers, it's just a matter of more hot and cold water storage (bigger buffer tank), and larger pipes and pumps to handle the flow rate.


Cold storage requirements are relatively easy to work out. Take what you are going to use, subtract how much you'll get from the mains while you are using it, and the difference is what you need to store. Keep it simple, assume 20l/m showers, and 20l/m from the mains.
Running 2 shores, your deficit is 20l/min, or over 15 minutes, that's 300l. During the 15 minute break, you'd replace that 300l - so only 300l storage required (plus a bit !).
Run 4 showers at once, that's 60l/m deficit, or 900l during the 15 minutes of use. So you need to store at least 900l of water, and it will take 45 minutes to refill.
Remember that you need to use total shower flow rate since the stored hot water will be supplying the cold feed requirement of the showers and replenishing the water drawn from the hot water storage.


Now, as to the heat requirements, if you draw off the hot water "slowly" (only 2 showers, then a break, then 2 more), the heat source can be putting heat back in during that time. In your stated usage pattern, the showers will take around 45 minutes start to end - so you have 45 minutes of heat input which can offset a requirement for stored water.
Draw the same quantity of hot water off in 15 minute (ie 4 simultaneous showers), then you only have 15 minutes worth of heat input while you are drawing off. So you need to increase the stored hot water by the equivalent of 30 minutes worth of what your heat input can provide.

So, very, very roughly, lets say your boiler will take 90 minutes to put back all the heat you've taken out. In the "2 + gap + 2" scenario, half of the heat will have been put in while you are drawing off. In effect you only have to store half of the heat you are using. In the "4 at once" scenario, only 1/6 of the heat will be put back while you are using it, so you need to store 5/6 of the heat you are using.
In the latter case, you need to store 5/6 instead of 1/2 (3/6) - the difference is 2/6, or 66% more than if you spread the showers. But that really is "just" a matter of larger cylinders. In practice, I think the difference in design would be to assume that in the rapid drawoff scenario you'd size the storage to supply all the demand (ie ignore the 1/6 theoretical reheat input), while in the slower drawoff you'd size the storage on the assumption that you'd have some effective reheat (theoretically about 1/2) during use and so could size less storage.
As I say, that's only a very very rough approximation since you won't end up with the cylinder with a clean division between hot water at the top and cold in the bottom. Depending on the specifics of the design, you'll end up with cylinders with varying temperatures - with "bottom up" reheat, you end up with a cylinder full of lukewarm water which isn't useful until it's fully recovered. The above figures assume a "perfect" cylinder where you'll get hot water out until the last drop - imagine a cylinder with hot in the top, cold in the bottom, and a distinct boundary where hot and cold meet but don't mix (they don't generally exist).


This is where the design is critical. I think someone earlier mentioned twin coils - that would allow the reheat to initially work in the top of the cylinder to keep a ready supply of hot water (but not a huge volume), and then switch to reheating the lower part of the cylinder. That can significantly decrease the perceived reheat time by keeping hot water available even though the cylinder has a lot of cold water in the bottom. I can think of a case for using a much larger coil running top-bottom (like the DHW coil in a thermal store in reverse) with the flow regulated to match the boiler output - would give top-down reheat and also extract 100% of the boiler capacity until the cylinder bottom reaches a certain temperature when transfer would start to drop off. Previously I've seen a suggestion to use a combi and reheat the cylinder with the DHW connections of that.
Lots of options, and it needs someone who understands them and can choose the best - rather than someone who will recommend "what he knows".


I hope that's given you some idea of the issues that need to be taken into account.
The price of underestimating is that you spend a lot of money on something that disappoints - perhaps the second set of users find the showers don't run as long as they'd like before running out of heat. Correcting that could be more costly than the initial install, and if you don't have the room (eg for bigger tanks) could be very difficult.
If you overestimate requirements, you pay a little extra (eg for bigger tanks etc), and potentially a bit more in standing heat losses - but this will be nothing compared to the cost of getting it wrong the other way.
 
Some intelligent numbers for the OP, not fact number but close for the sake of the discussion.

Lets assume a good ish shower @ 12ltrs min, the normal split for is 60/40.
Therefore 1 min will use 6ltrs hot and 4 ltrs cold.

Going on that two 20min shower will use 120Ltr of hot water and 80ltrs of cold, easily within the scope of 2 x 210Ltr cylinders.

4 showers 240Ltrs hot and 160ltrs cold, still well within the capacity

Now for the clever bit that everyone is forgetting, Recovery.

Most modern cylinders with high input coils have a recovery of 15-20min.

Therefore whilst you are in the shower for 20mins the boilers have replaced virtually what you have used, and you are ready to go again indefinitely.



All the suggestions are appreciated but I'm concentrating on this one for a moment because the numbers are easy for me to understand.

On the ballpark figures above it seems that 2x 210 litre cylinders are more than enough for hot water and may even leave me with some spare capacity should peak demand rise from time to time. On the other hand the figures suggest I might get away with one 300 litre tank if the recovery time can be guaranteed.

Obviously this assumes that the boiler/s are adequately specced to acheive the theoretical recovery time.

So this then brings us to cold water supply to maintain the flow. I measured mine at circa 15/min at a 15mm outside tap that comes straight off the cold mains. I know this is not an accurate measure and in reality it will be less.

So running 2x12l/min showers means I need at least 10l/min, perhaps more if a sink is being run. At the moment if I open a shower and tap there is an obvious drop in flow/pressure

Does this strengthen the arguement for me needing a break tank?

But does it seem as though I might get away with one cylinder?


Many many thanks
 
Thanks Simon, I need a little time to digest everything you've written but I think I get what you are trying to say.

Btw, that Thermal Store is still yours if you want it (when it comes out of course!) :)

It is well and truely knackered though, I'm sure the coil is covered in crud
 
With the hot water demand you have specified you could well end up sizing the boiler for that...then all you need is one boiler with two pumps one for the high temp hot water with priority and the other for heating with weather compensation...something like a 45kw Viessmann vitodens 200


As suggested a 500l cylinder fits the bill..,

That keeps it simple... Always good for all concerned...
 

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