How to remove a wall and fit an RSJ?

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hello All,

I'm a bit of a noob on the building forum and i just wondered if someone might advise me on the right way of how to remove a wall.

This is whats there at the moment:-

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• mikhailfaradayski
• 10 May 2010
• 1

This is what I would like to happen:-

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• mikhailfaradayski
• 10 May 2010
• 1

The floor above above this has just a stud wall deviding the bed room and bathroom, which doesn't even sit on top of the wall beneath, its offset about 500mm (ish)

I would think that it needs an RSJ to cover that span, but what dimension/depth would be needed?

Would i have to leave the (I think the're called) 'nibs' in place to give additional support? If so, how big do they need to be?

Many thanks in advance!!

edit:- BTW, i left the other walls, floorboards, plasterboard etc off the drawing
Either end of the RSJ wouls also have a brick wall to sit on aswell as any nibs that may be needed.

 

[noseall]

A lot will depend upon the layout of the building but it appears fairly straightforward.

Any of our resident S.E.'s care to answer.....?

 

[geraint]

are there any ses on here anymore.. used to enjoy reading at one time...

 

[Static]

are there any ses on here anymore.. used to enjoy reading at one time...

Glad we are here to entertain.. im kinda busy at the moment seems someone descided the ressession has been cancelled and everyone wants to build something..

So to answer the OPs question:

I would think that it needs an RSJ to cover that span, but what dimension/depth would be needed?

Would i have to leave the (I think the're called) 'nibs' in place to give additional support? If so, how big do they need to be?

Size will depend on the load from the floors above, stud wall size/height, if the stud wall carries the roof above.. and the overall opening span..
But assuming its just floor and a none load bearing stud wall and maybe a bath then it should be an RSJ size rather than something beafy.

As far as nibs go well they depend on the walls adjacent and if they can support the load from the beam, if the walls are load bearing they this is not normally a problem.. consideration to overall lateral stability of the whole house is considered as well..

To get building regs youll need some calcs for the beam.. most competent builders will know a local structural engineer (hopefully a cheap one too) who can do the calcs for building regs.. this will normally involve a visit by the SE to measure up unless you can provide some solid plans for the house floor/floor

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

are there any ses on here anymore.. used to enjoy reading at one time...

Glad we are here to entertain.. im kinda busy at the moment seems someone descided the ressession has been cancelled and everyone wants to build something..

lets hope that they'll want the buildings wiring up aswell

So to answer the OPs question:

I would think that it needs an RSJ to cover that span, but what dimension/depth would be needed?

Would i have to leave the (I think the're called) 'nibs' in place to give additional support? If so, how big do they need to be?

Size will depend on the load from the floors above, stud wall size/height, if the stud wall carries the roof above.. and the overall opening span..
But assuming its just floor and a none load bearing stud wall and maybe a bath then it should be an RSJ size rather than something beafy.

As far as nibs go well they depend on the walls adjacent and if they can support the load from the beam, if the walls are load bearing they this is not normally a problem.. consideration to overall lateral stability of the whole house is considered as well..

the walls at either end of where the rsj would sit are supporting walls (1 internal, 1 external) which carry on up and have walls upstairs.

The wall to be taken out only supports the floor joists. Above the wall to be removed is a bathroom and a bedroom seperated only by a stud/lath/plaster dividing wall. Obviously, there is a bath in the bathroom, but no other significant weights are being supported.
-Although i can't crystal ball it to see if the next occupants will install anything heavy up there, it seems very unlikely.

To get building regs youll need some calcs for the beam.. most competent builders will know a local structural engineer (hopefully a cheap one too) who can do the calcs for building regs.. this will normally involve a visit by the SE to measure up unless you can provide some solid plans for the house floor/floor

I spoke to a builder (neighbour, old hand been doing it for years, now semi-retired) who came round to have a look. He gave me an impression that it was a straight forward job, no planning permission required, just remember to double board it for fire damage prevention. I asked about stuctural calcs. He didn't seem to think that was so important and just recommended that a beam of 6"x4" section would be ample.

I have confidence in his abilities ( he built his own house from the ground up, lovely) has done work for a few people in the village that i know and comes with good recommendations, however, this is a bit out of my normal line of work and wanted to double check before i thrash things to bits.

Any other useful info would be a great. I sure my neighbour would be happy to answer any questions, but i don't want to be a burden to him be asking about every detail.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

BTW, i've been tinkering with google sketchup for couple of days now. Not bad for a free download, eh?
More diagrams could be supplied as soon as i have figured out how if it helps?

 

[RonnyRaygun]

I asked about stuctural calcs. He didn't seem to think that was so important and just recommended that a beam of 6"x4" section would be ample.

Occasionally the building inspector won't ask for calcs...but if they do and it fails it'll have to be replaced.

The wall to be taken out only supports the floor joists. Above the wall to be removed is a bathroom and a bedroom seperated only by a stud/lath/plaster dividing wall.

Also supports the stud wall. I take it the stud wall doesn't carry any loft/roof load? Not likely but possible.

Lateral stability shouldn't be too much of an issue as it doesn't sound like it's a spine wall.

What is the span?

 

[Static]

You will still need to get building regs to do it legally.. either be it full regs or on a building notice..

Your neighbour friend may well be right with the beam size, i dont know the full extent of the floors your supporting.. what spans are the floors it will be supporting?

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Untitled

• mikhailfaradayski
• 11 May 2010
• 1

don't know what happened to this drawing? But anyway-

The wall/s to be removed, shown in purple.
Where RSJ is to sit, shown as a green line.
Span to the left, approx 2300mm
span to the right, approx 1500mm

BTW, i don't know if it makes any difference, but this is a semi and the joined house is to the left according to the sketch.

AFAICT, the stud partition above is not carrying any weight of the roof above that.

One thing i could have sketched, is the location f the bath, which is to the bottom right hand corner of the drawing

 

[Static]

Wow you have a smaller bathroom than i do.. anyways your neighbour has given about the right size beam for those spans, assuming all info youve given to be correct.. and no roof/masonry loading.. (so if you downstand the beam to pick up a couple of brick courses may need a beafier one)

But i would also add that to comply with Building Regs any structural supporting members should be designed by a competent person and checked by BC.. I would recommend getting calcs done for this so the liability falls on anothers shoulders should anything go wrong..

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

(so if you downstand the beam to pick up a couple of brick courses may need a beafier one)

That sounds great, i just wish i knew what it mean't
(any chance you could re-phrase a bit, pls)

But i would also add that to comply with Building Regs any structural supporting members should be designed by a competent person and checked by BC.. I would recommend getting calcs done for this so the liability falls on anothers shoulders should anything go wrong..

good call i think. Doing the hammer work and all that good stuff is fine for me and my neighbour is an aimiable chap who is happy to give advice (for the odd bottle of red) and i do have trust in him, but taking the liability for design faults makes me a bit nervous. I'd rather get a third party to carry the can for that.

As that means a yellow pages job, any ideas of how much the calcs might amount to?
Happy to pay going rate, just don't want to get ripped. My fragile wallet couldn't take the stress

(also, had a notional figure in my head of about £80-£100 for the steel itself - optimistic or right sort of money?)

cheers for the help

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Static wrote:
(so if you downstand the beam to pick up a couple of brick courses may need a beafier one)

That sounds great, i just wish i knew what it mean't
(any chance you could re-phrase a bit, pls)

Static means if you put the beam in below ceiling level, so that it ends up carrying brickwork as well as the joists above, you might need something a bit bigger.

I guess you're intending to get the beam tight to the ceiling though?

Craig.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

oic, Thanks Craig.

You're right, i hope to have the joists sitting direct to the rsj, no further bricks inbetween.

Which kind of takes me to another question-
As the rsj would 'hang' into the new ceiling by about 150mm (ish) i was wondering whether to board around the rsj or drop the entire ceiling to match so that the rsj is not noticable. The ceiling needs re-boarding anyway, so i have a choice at the moment. Just considering the pros and cons.

 

[Static]

As RonnyRaygun says, its in case you/your builder chose to shift the beam down and pick up some of the wall.. which is mostly done cos it makes the temp propping easier.. just a few tall boys rather than scaff board and props on both sides of the wall..

Youll need to provide fire protection to the steel, this is normally a couple of layers of plasterboard around the exposed sides..

Grr.. not a big fan of the yellow pages.. but you never know.. chances are tho is youll be charged a premium if you pick a random engineers like that..

Best to ask around, see if your local Architects/Builders know any cheaper alternative SE's.. or there is a post in the building regs forum that lists a few online places that can do you generic calcs for a cheap price.. but your thoughts on cost arent far off.. the more info you can provide a designer the cheaper it will be.. photos/layout plans with dims etc make it dirt cheap

 

[RonnyRaygun]

I guess that's just personal preference. The only thing if you install a false ceiling is that again it's extra load on the beam.

Craig.