1. Visiting from the US? Why not try DIYnot.US instead? Click here to continue to DIYnot.US.
    Dismiss Notice

How to sell a boiler II

Discussion in 'Plumbing and Central Heating' started by vulcancontinental, 6 Jun 2017.

  1. Nine old car.jpg
     
  2. Sponsored Links
  3. dilalio

    dilalio

    Joined:
    20 Mar 2009
    Messages:
    7,302
    Thanks Received:
    1,126
    Location:
    Potters Bar
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Physics Vs marketing...
    it's all theoretical!
     
  4. DaveHerns

    DaveHerns

    Joined:
    11 Nov 2009
    Messages:
    2,582
    Thanks Received:
    207
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    What's wrong with being 60?
     
  5. If your still around in a good few years,will let you know :)
     
  6. AGAS

    AGAS

    Joined:
    21 Feb 2014
    Messages:
    9,691
    Thanks Received:
    1,710
    Location:
    down south
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    eh !!try reading again . thats not the point ;) he's going on about his achievement in A levels 40 yrs on :) and having imaginary conversations with his secret society .
     
  7. Wish you would take a holiday :!:

    :mrgreen: About time you stopped drinking the stuff,or maybe not :idea:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Dan Robinson

    Dan Robinson

    Joined:
    1 Jul 2007
    Messages:
    56,034
    Thanks Received:
    9,419
    Location:
    Hertfordshire & London
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    My point proven.... Blowhardgreen is confusing chemistry with physics :LOL: we did it with peanuts :rolleyes:
     
  9. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2006
    Messages:
    24,977
    Thanks Received:
    2,465
    Location:
    Bedfordshire
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    The chemistry is the combustion of a material and the thermal energy produced by that combustion. The physics is the transfer of that heat from comustion products to another material ( water in a domestc boiler ).

    You really should spend some effort in trying to justify the claim of 122% efficiency rather than trying to denigrate people asking you to do that. If it is a genuine claim then there should be no reason for you not to explain how that figure of 122% is achieved.

    The claim of 122% efficiency is false because it is impossible to achieve it.

    The actual claim is 122% with a qualifier (Hi). Provided the qualifier is always mentioned and, if required can be explained the customer, then claiming efficience is 122% (Hi) is probably legal.

    intergas flyer_1.jpg

    A salesman should be able to explain the meaning of and the calculations involved with that qualifier.

    If an appliance manufacturer expects people to sell and/or recommend an appliance with the sale based on dubious claims then the manufacturer should make all the necessary support for that claim available to those who are selling / recommending the appliance.

    As to the testing procedure.

    What are the the time periods used when measuring efficiency in domestic hot water mode ?

    Is the efficency (A) measured by drawing hot water in one continuous flow for say 10 minutes or (B) is it measured by drawing the hot water in say 10 periods each lasting one minute with several ninutes between each draw.

    Those two methods will give different results for efficiency. The amount of metal ( or other heat exchanger material ) and its thermal mass between the combustion chamber and the water will be the main factor that produces the difference in efficency between the two methods of testing.. The more thermal mass to heat before heat reaches the water the lower the efficiency of the boiler.

    Method (A) involved only one one heating of the thermal mass before the water reaches the required temporature. Method (B) involves ten periods of heating of the thermal mass before the water reaches the required temperature.

    Method (A) is the best method for marketing boilers with a large mass of metal (or other heat exchanger material) as this type of boiler has the greatest difference in measured efficiency between method (A) and method (B).
     
  10. Sponsored Links
  11. Dan Robinson

    Dan Robinson

    Joined:
    1 Jul 2007
    Messages:
    56,034
    Thanks Received:
    9,419
    Location:
    Hertfordshire & London
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Why should I? I'm not making any claims about efficiency. I don't sell this product. You should pay more attention.

    Well it palpably is.

    You don't know what the fecking test is!
     
  12. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2006
    Messages:
    24,977
    Thanks Received:
    2,465
    Location:
    Bedfordshire
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Maybe you don't sell it ( is it available yet in the UK ? ) but you do seem to be very keen to promote the Intergas brand

    No I don't and it seems neither do you. Or you do and can't admit it.

    Try it in a court of law.

    122% any expert witness would state that was an impossible claim in respect of a gas burning appliance and the court would agree
    122%(Hi) along with the explanation of the meaning of (Hi) the court would probably have to accept the qualification.

    Adverts for a brand of Polish Pure Spirit

    Described as 110% .... Advert Illegal
    Described as 110% proof...... Advert Legal
    Described as 55% v/v.......Advert Legal
    Described as alc 55% vol.....Advert Legal ( and recommended )

    v/v = volume of alcohol / volume of non alcoholic liquid


    As a side topic to explain how an alcoholic mixure can be greater than 100% proof ( but not greater than 100% v/v )

    What is proof spirit and how is ( was ) it tested ?

    In this connection the strength of alcohol is usually determined by referring it to "proof," which is an old English system used before modern methods of testing spirits were available. In its original application, gunpowder was moistened with the spirit and the mixture subjected to the flame of a match. When just enough alcohol was present to set fire to the powder, it was said to be "proof spirit." If not enough alcohol was present to accomplish this, it was said to be "under proof," and when the gunpowder was lighted easily by it, it was said to be "over proof."

    In Britain a mixture of alcohol and water or an alcoholic beverage that contains 49.28 per cent of alcohol by weight, 57.1 per cent by volume at 51°F: up until 1980 used as a standard of alcoholic liquids and was described as 100% proof. A similar standard mixture containing 50 per cent of alcohol by volume at 60°F is used in the USA
     
  13. Dan Robinson

    Dan Robinson

    Joined:
    1 Jul 2007
    Messages:
    56,034
    Thanks Received:
    9,419
    Location:
    Hertfordshire & London
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I've never claimed to know it.

    Yes your honour, I may have mentioned efficiency levels as I have a copy of the independent test report that corroborates what I said.

    Well for someone so opinionated, I would expect you to know.

    But it isn't. And funnily enough the draft version of the UK brochure didn't have 122% on it.

    Did I mention the independent test certificate (of which I have a copy)? You've yet to explain how using its results makes Intergas dishonest.
     
  14. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2006
    Messages:
    24,977
    Thanks Received:
    2,465
    Location:
    Bedfordshire
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Yes you did, are you saying this certificate does not provide any details of the methods of testing.

    112% efficient gas burning appliance is impossible

    112%(qualified) efficent is possible to quote but only by using maths to extrapolate actual results beyond actual physical limits. Meaning it is impossible to achieve in normal operation of the appliance. Unethical if the qualifier is not clearly explained when using the figure in advertising or sales contracts.
     
  15. Dan Robinson

    Dan Robinson

    Joined:
    1 Jul 2007
    Messages:
    56,034
    Thanks Received:
    9,419
    Location:
    Hertfordshire & London
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    If there are 4 tests and one gives result A, and result A is used then it is not dishonest.

    The fact you can't see how a result is obtained does not make it unobtainable.

    I think I'll trust an independent test house used across the industry and several others over some armchair googleer with imaginary friends.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Agile

    Agile

    Joined:
    26 Jun 2004
    Messages:
    63,812
    Thanks Received:
    4,556
    Location:
    London
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    But when all/most other boiler makers only quote the expected efficiency figure of less than 100% there is clearly something different about the way the IG figures are being arrived at.

    Does not bother me much as I am to fit another IG later this week!
     
  17. D_Hailsham

    D_Hailsham

    Joined:
    18 Oct 2007
    Messages:
    10,587
    Thanks Received:
    1,342
    Location:
    Kent
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    "Hi" means that the test is relative to the Net Calorific Value of the fuel; "Hs" is the Gross Calorific Value.

    European tests are always based on the NCV; UK tests on the GCV. So condensing boilers tested using the European method can have an efficiency greater than 100%.
     
Loading...

Share This Page