I found something else in the loft - Vermiculite

[thesled]

Hi folks
Still poking around in my Victorian loft and I find something pretty unVictorian - vermiculite insulation.
Age unknown but I reckon it's a safe bet to say its been there at least 20 years probably longer, bit mucky and scruffy, depth variable maybe a couple of inches average.
I hate the stuff, I'd really like to get rid of it, but with lath and plaster celings you can't just sweep it up cleanly, so I'd have to vac up the last bits. Trouble is I understand it MAY contain asbestos, so that may be a bad move. Also there's a lot of it overall.
Current thinking is to just level it out, leave it alone as much s possible and cover with standard rockwool type stuff.

Any other thoughts welcome. . . . . .

Regards

Simon

 

[Tigercubrider]

I’d cover it with rock wool as it’s not worth the hassle.
You will create dust moving it, a possible risk, but a Suitable vacuum will be ok. Although minimal benefit.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

If you suspect there may be asbestos, then get it tested, if only for ease of mind. My understanding is that the use of asbestos in vermiculite insulation came to and end about 1990 and that not all loose vermiculate insulation contained asbestos - but that doesn't really help you, I'm afraid. There is a page on the subject here, if you are interested.

If you get it tested and are given the all clear, get yourself a face-fit P3 mask (something like a JSP Force 8 with P3 filters), a "romper suit" (disposable coveralls), hire a shop vac with a large diameter (50 to 100mm) hose and suck it out if you want to.

If on the other hand the result comes back as it contains asbestos you can lay more insulation over the top providing you don't disturb it and kick dust into the air. TBH, either way, I think I'd damp it down with water and a spritzer bottle (damping down minimises dust being kicked up) then sheet it over with a layer of thin polythene sheet, taped or stapled in place, before laying any extra insulation on top of it.

You could take it out, but under NO circumstances should you ever vacuum-out asbestos containing materials withoiut the proper equipment - which means a class-H industrial vacuum, decontamination facilities for the operative, etc). Most people survive occasional contact with asbestos fibres (hell, we used to hand saw and install Asbestolux fire boarding with only paper masks in the 1970s), but it is a material to be wary of

 

[Deleted member 174758]

You will create dust moving it, a possible risk, but a Suitable vacuum will be ok. Although minimal benefit.

Sorry, but no damping down? No suitable mask? And the only "suitable vacuum" (class-H industrial) is very difficult to hire - vacuuming asbestos is normally considered to be an absolute NO-NO!

 

[thesled]

I’d cover it with rock wool as it’s not worth the hassle.
You will create dust moving it, a possible risk, but a Suitable vacuum will be ok. Although minimal benefit.

Yep certainly where it looks like going, lot of work for not much as you say even if it could be done (relatively) safely.
Who knows - might even work as originally intended and provide some extra insulation.

 

[thesled]

Thanks JobandKnock
All sounds. . . . . . . sound.
Funnily enough I do have that exact mask and filters. Just wondering if I should get some new filters. Not sure how long they last.
All thinks considered, I think it comes back to Plan A moreorless.
If I get it tested and it camos back positive, I think I'd prefer to cover it up and leave it. The downside is that when I come eventually to sell, if they ever ask awkward questions like 'Do you have asbestos in your house' I'd have to say yes, whereas now I can just say 'I don't know'. And it may be that there isn't any.
Quite like the polythene idea though. Like the idea of keeping all those annoying bits sealed in if nothing else. Will def look into that. Any suggestions what sort of polythene I should be looking for ?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Funnily enough I do have that exact mask and filters. Just wondering if I should get some new filters. Not sure how long they last.

If you open a filter cartridge for those Force 8 masks you'll find that they contain pleated paper fibre filter, so basically if you self test the seal, then try breathing normally through the mask, the filters are considered to be blocked when your breathing is laboured. I get anything from a few days (heavy demolition of timbers with dry rot) to maybe 6 weeks (normal sawing of softwood joisting, spars, rafters, etc - say 2 to 3 hours per day) out of the P3 filters. Continous sawing of MDF or plywood and I'll get 3 to 4 weeks out of filters. Note that I use vacuums attached to saws as much as is feasible (not 100% of the time, though)

If I get it tested and it camos back positive, I think I'd prefer to cover it up and leave it.

Every year for about 10 years now I've had to redo my asbestos awareness certificate. It has become boring, in a way, but it is at least a reminder of the dangers of the environment I choose to work in. The standard industry advice is always the same - DON'T disturb it, DON'T vacuum it and always try to encapsulate it. That way you reduce risk to yourself and your household - it isn't about 0% risk, it's more about risk management to minimise risk, but as a householder you are at a lot lower risk than an electrician or plumber

The downside is that when I come eventually to sell, if they ever ask awkward questions like 'Do you have asbestos in your house' I'd have to say yes, whereas now I can just say 'I don't know'.

But a full survey would pick it up in any case (or should at least highlight it as a suspect material - our last full house survey did just that), and when buying any house built prior to the 1990s I think I'd want to know about the presence of asbestos (but then I'm trade and probably a bit more savvy about it). I am not a building surveyor, yet if I go out to scope a job prior to quoting, even I know to look for asbestos and some other "gotchas" which might cost us dear if they were missed

Quite like the polythene idea though. Like the idea of keeping all those annoying bits sealed in if nothing else.

Asbestos or not, you really do need to damp it down with water using a spritzer to control the dust before starting. It makes a very unpleasant job slightly less noxious. The polythene sheeting I'm talking about is the really thin stuff that comes in rolls - cheap as chips, but will contain a lot of the dust whilst you roll out your extra insulation

 

[Tigercubrider]

Sorry, but no damping down? No suitable mask? And the only "suitable vacuum" (class-H industrial) is very difficult to hire - vacuuming asbestos is normally considered to be an absolute NO-NO!

I did say “suitable” meaning a class H. I would have thought that a mask was obvious given the OP’s concern, as was a noddy suit. I tend to think that not damping while careful use of a vac is better to avoid clogging.

I’ll check that on my next asbestos renewal

 

[RandomGrinch]

The last time I looked into asbestos in vermiculite, I seem to recall that testing for it was problematic.
The asbestos was only ever a contaminant (mainly in material sourced from the US, before the 90's); taking a sample from one area of the loft may show asbestos, when not in another.
Again, I recall that the advice was to treat it as contaminated, leave it in place and cover it up.
I will have to reinvestigate my information sources - other than that - take the advice of @JobAndKnock

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I did say “suitable” meaning a class H. I would have thought that a mask was obvious given the OP’s concern, as was a noddy suit. I tend to think that not damping while careful use of a vac is better to avoid clogging.

TBH the last time I had to hire a class H vacuum there were major problems sourcing one. This was apparently because the hirer now has to ensure that the vacuum is decontaminated, has new filters and bags fitted and is recertified on every hire making short term hire very, very expensive. I feel that most people (here) are unaware of the differences between class L, M and H vacuums, not to mention being unaware of the differences between different types of mask (filtration levels, face fit, etc), so despite it being pedantic, I feel it is always best to state specifically what it is we mean. Due to the nature of asbestos, and the tiny size of the fibres (too small for the human eye to differentiate), damping down is still regarded as the most effective way to ensure that the fibres do not become airborne AFAIK, but that leaving in place, documenting it and encapsulating it as opposed to disturbing it is regarded as the safest of all in more than 90% of cases, although it is 2 or 3 years since I attended a seminar on the subject, so I may be out of date on this (however I don't think so)

Not so long back we had one respondent who seriously suggested using a standard vacuum to lift asbestos. The fibres would have gone straight through the filters, out the back of the vac and been thrown many feet from the vacuum. Hair raising!

I am reminded of the potential consequences of working with asbestos without taking precautions by a postcard from a mate of mine which is always pinned to the noticeboard in my home office. It reads "never seen so much effing Artex!". He was a decorator and eventually died of mesothelioma, possibly from dusting Artex ceilings, although his habit of smoking (a lot) couldn't have helped. His sister had his dusting brushes tested for asbestos after he died - they were contaminated.

 

[thesled]

The last time I looked into asbestos in vermiculite, I seem to recall that testing for it was problematic.
The asbestos was only ever a contaminant (mainly in material sourced from the US, before the 90's); taking a sample from one area of the loft may show asbestos, when not in another.
Again, I recall that the advice was to treat it as contaminated, leave it in place and cover it up.
I will have to reinvestigate my information sources - other than that - take the advice of @JobAndKnock

A good summary I think. That's certainly my preferred route all things considered. And will certainly take on board the advice about damping down and covering in. I have a garden sprayer I use for cement work which will be ideal for that. I will probably look to use some heavier duty polythene which will sit in place with minimal fixing so then could be moved if really needed for access. This will at least prevent the vermiculite bits from getting into the rockwool because it's likely the rockwool at least would have to be lifted for electrical access. I have some heavy black polythene (probably 1000g black garden poly) but I've used most of it up because yes, I've been having to break up old asbestos garage roofing sheets and wrapping them for the tip. But even that is quite cheap. I even have Artex ceilings too. Groan. Never mind - I certainly won't be touching those anytime soon.
Thanks @JobAndKnock for the thoughts on the mask and filters, though I tend to have the opposite problem - lack of use. Being more of an 'occasional' user my main concern is more that over time they will build up bacterial and/or fungal contamination, though the one-way valves should prevent breath/water contamination. Even so, probably should change the filters after a few months as a precaution.
Regarding testing, surveys and all that, I don't want to make too big a fuss about something that may not even be a problem, so if I follow the 'leave it and cover it' route I reckon I've done my bit and as far as any future buyer is concerned I'll worry about that when it happens. 'Caveat emptor' and so on.

 

[Keithmac]

When I removed a ton of Pidgeon poo from my dads loft I found the best way was damping down and shovelling into bags in the loft.

I had all the kit on, the Force 8 masks are very good if you get the right size.

Maybe worth buying the insulation that's inside a bag as it's easier to handle than the sheets.

I wouldn't fancy wafting asbestos everywhere so your plan seems like best bet.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

...mask and filters, though I tend to have the opposite problem - lack of use. Being more of an 'occasional' user my main concern is more that over time they will build up bacterial and/or fungal contamination, though the one-way valves should prevent breath/water contamination. Even so, probably should change the filters after a few months as a precaution.

Firstly the filters for Force 8s used to be about £8/pair (P3), so not too expensive. (Edit: checked prices - currently just under £9 at SFX)

The main part of the filter mask:



Is made from rubber and plastics and believe it or not mine goes through a low (cold) temperature wash in washing machine (sans filters, but together with my hard hat - no fabric conditioner, though, which makes everything feel "greasy" and don't wash filters as that ruins them) in the delicates bag maybe once a month (more often if heavily contaminated). At the end of a working session I almost always give it a spritz of disinfectant multi-surface cleaner (like Dettox) and a wipe down with some tissues inside and out to get rid of condensation from my own breath. It takes all of a couple of minutes.

Note that you can also remove the one way exhaust valve cover for cleaning, a 1/8 turn twist connection:



For longer term storage I think all you need to do is remove the filters (1/8 turn to twist off), clean and dry the mask body and store it in a plastic bag. I'd wipe off the outsides of the filters with a tissue and store them in a second plastic bag, possibly with a sachet or two of silica gel if you are concerned about fungal growth - a combination of the highly absorbent nature of the filter material inside the cartridges and the dessicating effect of silica gel should make it impossible for fungus to be activated (all fungii need water to grow, although many seem able to remain dormant for long periods even in harsh environments)

Store these items somewhere cool and dry as heat and UV light both degrade rubber and you should get a long life from them

 

[Keithmac]

This had about 9 hrs on it, did it's job!.

 

[thesled]

Thanks for the tips on 'mask maintenance' JobAndKnock. All duly noted.
Amazed it survives the w/mc. I think I might pass on that one for now. . . . .
For a freshen up (after drying off - amazed how wet they get) I've got some stuff called SurSol 'face mask sanitising spray' which came from somewhere I got Covid masks from so it gets a spritz round the inside with that.
It contains benzalkonium chloride** so it's fairly 'mild' - I think its the same stuff they put in Savlon. But seems to do the job.
Looking at the pictures of Keith's masks I'm wondering if the filters in these masks are a bit on the small side for you commercial guys. . . .

** Actually I think a lot of general 'disinfectant sprays' contain much the same stuff, just more.