Ian Tomlinson 'seemed drunk', G20 police officer says

[LastMagicBean]

This was a terrible, terrible thing that happened.

All the grief.
All the enquiries.
All the 'what if's'.
All the anger.
All the finger pointing......

Yep, That poor policemen. Terrible luck indeed that he came across this particular troublemaker.

How is any policeman, pushing a non-compliant individual in a RIOT SITUATION, supposed to know that they have, what amounts to, a landmine strapped to their liver.
Any pressure and BANG.
He could just as easily slipped over on a can of the extra strong lager, he had reportedly been drinking unspecified amounts of before this incident even happened.
The unfortunate result would have sadly been the same.

I Do feel genuinely sorry this incident happened and a man lost his life.

But MANSLAUGHTER ????? Do me a favour.

 

[misterdubya]

Arguing with someone with fixed views is really like pishing into the wind... but if any of you are serious in looking for a debate around the OP's comment, then humour me here...

You seem to have fixed views yourself. This is not a thread that needs humour.

Let's get all this in context...

A police officer brutally shoved a man to the floor, extinguising his life. That is what happened isn't it? He may have walked slowly. I have a condition that prevents me walking quickly - should I be battered and subsequently killed?

a. you wouldn't expect to be walking around Tesco's and have a copper charge up to you and beat you to the ground with a baton, i think we'd all agree that.

No, not really, but if was shopping in Tesco's and a riot ensued without my knowledge, I would not expect to be brutally shoved to the floor whilst buying goose fat.

- but there was a riot happening when this guy died.

and..... whats your point here?

There are some assumptions here:

Yes, mostly on your part.

- the police were told to move people away from the area (that's what it looked like they were doing).
- you must act overly confident/firm when moving people away in a riot (any action seen as 'weak' will be exploited by anarchists, troublemakers).

By killing them?

The OP comments on the suggestion this guy was drunk. Well people who are ill can look drunk, but he did look drunk. I thought he was making a point of moving slowly when being told to move quickly.

What an idiotic comment to make. You have no idea of that mans health and have read too many tabloid newspapers. Do us all a favour and post facts, not you narrow minded view.

Now that could've been because he was poorly, or tired, or confused, or drunk or just being a pain in the ass!!

I think he was trying to find his way home, maybe all the above, but not causing any trouble.

The coppers in this situation can't be social workers, or carers, they have to be firm, and clear in what they want to happen. And i believe it's completely reasonable to push a guy to encourage him to move on in these circumstances.

No, but there are no different to any of us, except the bullies who slap women protesters and push people of ill health to the floor - just because they can.

It's said he was brutally killed... well there's such a fine line between words like brutally and assertive. This guy was pushed horizontally... he wasn;t beaten or trampled....it's unfortunate.

Oh, how unfortunate a guy was killed by an over-zelous police officer.

Mattie you say you've been drunk and not caused trouble - this guy looked like he was drunk and moving more slowly than the police required.... that'll be illegal then.

No, that is not illegal you idiot.

Mr. W.

 

[imamartian]

Unless you were there, how do you know what was said? He had turned his back on the thug in uniform and was walking away when the thug attacked him pushing him so hard that he fell to the ground. He fell face down so the internal injuries must have been caused by the force of the blow to his back

so what are you then? fooking psychic or a pathologist?

Mattie you say you've been drunk and not caused trouble - this guy looked like he was drunk and moving more slowly than the police required.... that'll be illegal then.

Sorry, but it is not illegal to move slowly on foot. Unless you have evidence to the contrary of course.

I suspect he was hindering the police in their duties?[/quote]

You say he looked drunk, that is quite an assumption on your part.

No, i was referring to the OP's post!! but then thinking about it, am i not allowed an assumption? you seem to make enough !!

 

[imamartian]

Arguing with someone with fixed views is really like pishing into the wind... but if any of you are serious in looking for a debate around the OP's comment, then humour me here...

You seem to have fixed views yourself. This is not a thread that needs humour.

it doesn't mean humour ha ha ffs !!! are you serious?

Let's get all this in context...

A police officer brutally shoved a man to the floor, extinguising his life. That is what happened isn't it? He may have walked slowly. I have a condition that prevents me walking quickly - should I be battered and subsequently killed?

of course not you idiot, but wouldn't you get yourself out of there? and the police can't assume everyone there has a heart condition... especially when they're throwing petrol bombs and fire extinguishers at them

a. you wouldn't expect to be walking around Tesco's and have a copper charge up to you and beat you to the ground with a baton, i think we'd all agree that.

No, not really, but if was shopping in Tesco's and a riot ensued without my knowledge, I would not expect to be brutally shoved to the floor whilst buying goose fat.

oh we agree!!

- the police were told to move people away from the area (that's what it looked like they were doing).
- you must act overly confident/firm when moving people away in a riot (any action seen as 'weak' will be exploited by anarchists, troublemakers).

By killing them?

your words

The OP comments on the suggestion this guy was drunk. Well people who are ill can look drunk, but he did look drunk. I thought he was making a point of moving slowly when being told to move quickly.

What an idiotic comment to make. You have no idea of that mans health and have read too many tabloid newspapers. Do us all a favour and post facts, not you narrow minded view.

this whole site is far more opinion than fact.. why should i conform?
And if i have no idea of that man's health, how can a riot cop know that ? eh? eh?

Now that could've been because he was poorly, or tired, or confused, or drunk or just being a pain in the ass!!

I think he was trying to find his way home, maybe all the above, but not causing any trouble.

"i think" oh i see, you can post opinion without fact, but i can't?

I'm now bored with trying to answer your aggressive and disrespectful post. You hate the police if you wish... your arguments are based on an extreme situation and and unfortunate result, not police curruption and and ruined society

 

[JohnD]

You hate the police if you wish...

How silly

You think that disapproving of the actions of a violent thug is the same as hating the police?

 

[imamartian]

You hate the police if you wish...

How silly

You think that disapproving of the actions of a violent thug is the same as hating the police?

it's not silly... you miss that fact many people can't cope with authority... can't accept being told to walk more quickly by another person (no matter their role).

it's unfortunate the guy died, but he could've died from tripping over his slippers...

Riot police aren't designed to be softies....

You lot should vent your spleen at the anarchists who cause this sort of situation out of legal demonstrations... not the police who have 'manage' the unmanageable !!!

 

[JohnD]

very sad

you're so eager to excuse the violent actions of a thug, that you come up with all sorts of reasons why his actions are acceptable, and even to make up your own explanations.

 

[imamartian]

very sad

you're so eager to excuse the violent actions of a thug, that you come up with all sorts of reasons why his actions are acceptable, and even to make up your own explanations.

well lets turn it around... you're a copper, tasked with clearing an area... (or kettling, or whatever) how do you approach this guy, not knowing his medical history? how do you push him in a non 'violent' way?

 

[JohnD]

OK, so here I am, a copper, and I'm ordered to prevent people getting out of an area.

During my training I was told that it is frowned upon to assault members of the public without good reason.

I am wound up with excitement and aggression, have taken off my identification, and have already assaulted a BBC cameraman from behind and thrown him to the ground, so I'm feeling pretty tough.

Some old newspaper seller approaches a large number of officers, of who I am one. He says he is trying to go home. I look him over and form an opinion as to whether he is a violent rioter attacking the police and presenting a danger, or some half-cut, shambling old bloke with his hands in his pockets.

I'm on the spot. Should I assault him from behind? Or shall I just tell him he can't go home?

I suppose the answer depends on me. Am I a violent thug looking for an outlet for my aggression, or am I a skilled and highly-trained professional trying to maintain order and respect for the law?

You asked what I would do.

Option 2.

And you?

 

[imamartian]

OK, so here I am, a copper, and I'm ordered to prevent people getting out of an area.

During my training I was told that it is frowned upon to assault or kill members of the public without good reason.

I am wound up with excitement and aggression, have taken off my identification, and have already assaulted a BBC cameraman from behind and thrown him to the ground, so I'm feeling pretty tough.

Some old newspaper seller approaches a large number of officers, of who I am one. He says he is trying to go home. I look him over and form an opinion as to whether he is a violent rioter attacking the police and presenting a danger, or some half-cut, shambling old bloke with his hands in his pockets.

I'm on the spot. ShouldI assault him from behind? Or shall I just tell him he can't go home? Will anyone try to stop me? Can I rely on my colleagues to "not see anything" and the force to claim there are no CCTV cameras watching me? Can I act with impunity and get away with it?

I suppose the answer depends on me. Am I a violent thug looking for an outlet for my aggression, or am I a skilled and highly-trained professional trying to maintain order and respect for the law?

You asked what I would do.

Option 2.

And you?

with the greatest respect John, you made a biased point rather than answering the question....

"old newspaper seller" how do you know this?

"He says he is trying to go home" anarchist will say anything!!

"whether he is a violent rioter" they don't wear a uniform !

"some half-cut, shambling old bloke " you said he wasn't drunk didn't you?

"with his hands in his pockets" what? perhaps looking for a flick-knife?

"and the force to claim there are no CCTV cameras watching me?" any idiot knows there are 60 million HD video cameras on mobile phones these days !!

 

[JohnD]

So you won't answer the question you yourself asked

 

[imamartian]

So you won't answer the question you yourself asked

i'll answer the question if you do... what would you have done?

 

[JohnD]

As you didn't notice my answer, I've used RED TEXT to make it easier for you

Where's your answer?

OK, so here I am, a copper, and I'm ordered to prevent people getting out of an area.

During my training I was told that it is frowned upon to assault members of the public without good reason.

I am wound up with excitement and aggression, have taken off my identification, and have already assaulted a BBC cameraman from behind and thrown him to the ground, so I'm feeling pretty tough.

Some old newspaper seller approaches a large number of officers, of who I am one. He says he is trying to go home. I look him over and form an opinion as to whether he is a violent rioter attacking the police and presenting a danger, or some half-cut, shambling old bloke with his hands in his pockets.

I'm on the spot. OPTION 1 Should I assault him from behind? OPTION 2 Or shall I just tell him he can't go home?

I suppose the answer depends on me. Am I a violent thug looking for an outlet for my aggression, or am I a skilled and highly-trained professional trying to maintain order and respect for the law?

You asked what I would do.

Option 2.

And you?

 

[imamartian]

As you didn't notice my answer, I've used RED TEXT to make it easier for you

Where's your answer?

OK, so here I am, a copper, and I'm ordered to prevent people getting out of an area.

During my training I was told that it is frowned upon to assault members of the public without good reason.

I am wound up with excitement and aggression, have taken off my identification, and have already assaulted a BBC cameraman from behind and thrown him to the ground, so I'm feeling pretty tough.

Some old newspaper seller approaches a large number of officers, of who I am one. He says he is trying to go home. I look him over and form an opinion as to whether he is a violent rioter attacking the police and presenting a danger, or some half-cut, shambling old bloke with his hands in his pockets.

I'm on the spot. OPTION 1 Should I assault him from behind? OPTION 2 Or shall I just tell him he can't go home?

I suppose the answer depends on me. Am I a violent thug looking for an outlet for my aggression, or am I a skilled and highly-trained professional trying to maintain order and respect for the law?

You asked what I would do.

Option 2.

And you?

oh i see, Mr patronising !!! but maybe they did do your option 2... how the hell do you know they didn't?

and what if the guy was deaf... what do you do after you ask him to leave and he can't hear you?

 

[JohnD]

so you won't answer your own question

waste of oxygen you are.