I'd like to know what's what

[tony1851]

Gentlemen, please!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Your argument comes down to "because I pointed out a scenario where statement might not be true, I must be advocating the actions in that scenario". By that argument, if a (say) documentary was done on how a (say) robbery was committed and the perpetrators got away - which is a staple of some type of TV program - then the documentary maker is advocating that people go out and copy the robbery.

Don't be ridiculous. This is not a documentary, it's an advice forum.

The OP asked what he should do, not what some people get away with.

And as I've explained, I have not advocating any of those.

FFS.

Let's cut to the chase, and as part of that I will stop trying to argue against your very odd definition of the word "lie".

The OP came here for advice on Building Regulations and Planning Permission. Unless you want to claim otherwise, I am assuming that he wanted to get good advice.

You advised him that he could go ahead without the necessary approvals (which would be a criminal act), and that if that should cause him problems when he came to sell the property then he could try to get round them by obfuscation, evasion, omission and misdirection in his replies to questions, because in your opinion there would be a good chance that that would be successful.

Will you please stop giving advice like that or sod off.

 

[SimonH2]

You advised him ... and that if that should cause him problems when he came to sell the property then he could try to get round them by obfuscation, evasion, omission and misdirection in his replies to questions ...

No I did not. I have explained several times that I have not, yet you persist in refusing to see the difference between an example demonstrating that a statement is incorrect or incomplete, and advice to perform an act. The bit you keep quoting as "proof" of my criminal intent was a direct response pointing out your erroneous "absolute assertion".

PS - No I am not using a strange definition of lie either, I know exactly what it means.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

But as suggested, you could just crack on and see if anyone notices !

This is you telling the OP that he could just break the law and carry on without getting the necessary approvals.

They will notice when the house is sold

You think ? I disagree.

I should point out that I was assuming that the OP would be truthful about what he had done when, and what approvals he had sought when, and what completions certificates he had.

I did not see that I needed to explain this, because as far as I am concerned, honesty and trustworthiness are bedrock characteristics of decent civilised people, and that there should be no question that the OP would not of course behave in that way.

<some years> down the line it goes for sale, solicitor gives you one of those forms that asks loads of silly questions - I think we've more or less agreed that the one about electrics since 2005 is getting worthless. You truthfully answer that you've build the garden "shed" and show them papers relating to planning and building control. I think it's very very very very unlikely that anyone will give them more than a second glance - "yes there's paperwork for that building", ie the solicitor will see that you have stated that you added a building, yes you had planning permission, yes you have a completion certificate for it, all boxes ticked.

You didn't install the loo and sink at the same time, the paperwork won't show that. But no-one has lied - the form asked if there had been any building work, you tell them that you built this shed with services in it. The only time it becomes a lie to not mention the loo and sink is if you didn't do it at more or less the same time in which case to remain honest you would need to declare it separately - at which point the paper trail isn't there.

But if you say that "in 2014 we added the garden shed", and in 2014 you put the loo in it, then there's been no lie - they asked a question and you answered it. Word your BC notification carefully "construction of garden building with relevant services" and it'll be impossible to tell. It'll need electrics and surface drainage, so "relevant services" and you'll have a completion certificate for it.

And this is you explaining how the OP could try to get away with not having done it properly by obfuscation, evasion, omission and misdirection in his replies to questions.

 

[SimonH2]

Clearly you can't or won't understand the context.
Tell you what, you believe whatever makes you feel warm and smug, I'll believe what I believe, and others can make their own minds up.
But I sugest you go and find out what the actual wording of some of hte standard questions forms is - you may be surprised.

 

[GeminianDragon]

Hi guys, thank you for your responses.

I thought I would post for future reference; for anyone who is Googling and happens to stubble upon this post.

I am sorry if I keep putting "Building Permission" it is actually "Building Regulations".


WHAT YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BUILD WITHOUT PLANNING PERMISSION AND/OR BUILDING REGULATIONS:

- Domestic use; such as a bedroom/guest house with or without bathroom, kitchen, etc, as it will be classed as a separate dwelling
- Commercial use; such as a car mechanic garage for noise/nuance purposes
- A building bigger than 15 square metres; whatever it is made out of (wood, brick)



WHAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BUILD WITHOUT PERMISSION:

1) You are allowed to build up to 15 square metres which is either 5 metres by 3 metres or 4 metres by 4 metres (can have other variations but these two examples are the most common).

2) The total height of the outbuilding must be no taller than 2.5 metres; this does not include a pitched roof.

3) The building has to be 1 metre from any fences, any other buildings etc. all the way around.

4) You must also have proper foundation put down into the ground and it would really help if you are using bricks, cement and mortar to start building 50cm the original ground height; especially if you are near any trees you might have to dig at least 1.5 metres down and remove any live roots due to moisture which can cause the foundation and/or building floor to swell or sink, as well as growing roots pushing the foundation and/or building floor up.

5) You are allowed to use 50% of your garden for buildings - if you already have extensions on the back of your house, this counts as your garden space. I have a 3 metre by 3 metre kitchen extension already, which makes the length of my garden 20 metres from the kitchen extensions exterior wall, this means I am only allowed to use 11.5 metres in length of my garden and I have already used 3 metres; therefore I have 8.5 metres left in length to use for any buildings in the garden, I can have as many as I like providing that they are 1 metre from each other.



---> So the conclusion is, you do not need Planning Permission or Building Regualtions and you do not need an architect to draw up the plans for a builder. You can just rely on a decent builder/building company who has experience in building extensions.



Is it worth just getting a wooden shed? Now, the cost would depend. The cost of clearing my garden completely (£300-£550), digging down to build the foundation and the foundation itself (£300) would still cost £600 before considering the cost of a wooden shed or building from bricks.

You might actually find depending on the size of your shed and where you buy from, Argos, Littlewoods (on credit for example as my neighbour did), that it would be cheaper to build out of bricks because you can find/or request reusable bricks on Gumtree, eBay and Free Cycle for next to nothing or completely free - even ask your builder if he has any spare reusable scrap materials going for free or at least 1/4 or 1/3 of the price - then you just need to pay the builder.



COMMERCIAL USE:

If you wanted to turn your shed/workshop into commercial (business) and/or domestic (sleeping accommodation, a guest house) or simply add a toilet for example, you will need to apply for Planning Permission under "Change of Use" as well as Health and Safety Regulations; your floor must be thick enough to keep people warm for example or damp and/or mold.

Building Regulation may be needed if the building inspector is not happy with the existing building.

If you are intending to have a toilet, you would have to make sure you build plumbing into your project, but not actually install a toilet for example. It would not be worth including all the pipework, just the minimal that needs to be installed in the ground or walls; especially if you have to run the pipework up the garden, this is expensive and risky of wasting time and money if your Planning Permission; Change of Use is rejected.

Apparently, the architects I spoke with agreed that if a building already existed in the garden, which could just be a brick shell built to the standard of what you would expect of an extension, but with no doors or windows; was more likely to be accepted Planning Permission into a guest house.

Installing PVC windows into your shed would suggest you built it for the purpose of a guest house without Planning Permission or Building Regulation. They could even question why you have no windows or doors installed - I was advised to try and get some second hand external doors and board the window hole up, explain that it was broken and unsafe.

All you would need to do in order to make it into a guest house is PVC windows, installation, radiator, plasterboard, plaster, decoration; skirting, laminate flooring/carpet, magnolia paint, but as I have said "Building Regulation may be needed if the building inspector is not happy with the existing building."

-----

By the way, I have no intention of turning into a guest house, although I could rent the space out as a studio for small groups; mother and toddler, children's birthday parties, photography, yoga, mediation, art groups, discussion groups, counselling, teaching, the list is endless and could slightly boost your income (just don't forget to declare it and register it as a commercial business)

-----

My Project:

The total job has been roughly estimated at £1,500, I think this is worth it if you are looking to create a guest house/extra bedroom for a teenager/someone with disabilities and/or rent the building out for activities (read very last paragraph for ideas). But you would probably be looking at spending £15,000 to create it into a separate dwelling; Planning Permission, Surveyors, Architects etc, BUT you could easily make that £15,000 back within 5 years depending on your activeness on advertising your space to rent.

I have been quoted £300 for 2 men to dig down 1-1.5 metres (depending on roots) - you do not need to dig down if you are building a wooden shed - and the foundation to be laid - this quote does not include deposing the dirt as I would like to keep it for raised flowerbeds in the future. My advice is to keep it, and then advise it on Gumtree, eBay and Free Cycle for free if collected.

The total cost of the actual building we are not sure of yet (from under £900, this include materials and labour) as we have planned this to be done in stages;

1) Garden cleared (March 2014):
- Highest quote - £550 (£395 for 1 week labour with 2 men and £160 for disposal)
- Professional quote - £395 (with wood chipper)
- Cheapest quote - £260 (2 unprofessional men, with no tools)
- Best offer - £300 - (will save the small trees, and dispose of the rest)

2) Foundation laid (April 2014):
- £300 quote so far (looking into others)

3) Building built (June 2014):
- Found a builder, just prefer to save and budget instead of rushing into things

Apparently, the architects I spoke with agreed that if a building already existed in the garden, which could just be a brick shell built to the standard of what you would expect of an extension, but with no doors or windows; was more likely to be accepted Planning Permission into a guest house.

I have spoken to some local architects (some with building companies attached to their companies in Birmingham) that have done "garden offices" and "workshop" projects, all said similar advice. I also checked out Planning Portal . gov . uk[/b]

What really confused me was, "garden shed", when you think of that word, you think of wood and not brick. As long as you follow the measurement restrictions and have the correct foundation etc down with trees near by, a building inspector cannot demand you to demolish your outbuilding unless it was built incorrectly (bad bricklaying for example).

You can add electric and running water for a sink (workshop purposes) without permission, but do seek qualified professionals to install. Do not install a radiator as it will be classed as a separate dwelling without Planning Permission/Building Regulation.

 

[cjard]

You've had some odd advice over the time, and appear to have devised quite a strict set of rules that aren't really true. Not wishing to go into too much detail, I'd simply urge future readers of this post not to go off this advice exclusively

 

[rjm2k]

Your post doesn't mention pd or article 4, the planning portal would be a much more useful place to look, especially the technical guidance doc.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I thought I would post for future reference; for anyone who is Googling and happens to stubble upon this post.

Let's hope that if they do, they take no notice of it.

WHAT YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BUILD WITHOUT PLANNING PERMISSION AND/OR BUILDING REGULATIONS:
.
.

- A building bigger than 15 square metres; whatever it is made out of (wood, brick)

Wrong.

WHAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BUILD WITHOUT PERMISSION:

1) You are allowed to build up to 15 square metres

Without PP? Not necessarily.

which is either 5 metres by 3 metres or 4 metres by 4 metres (can have other variations but these two examples are the most common).

I think you'll find 4x4=16, not 15.

2) The total height of the outbuilding must be no taller than 2.5 metres; this does not include a pitched roof.

It might do.

3) The building has to be 1 metre from any fences, any other buildings etc. all the way around.

Not necessarily.

5) You are allowed to use 50% of your garden for buildings

Not necessarily.

- if you already have extensions on the back of your house, this counts as your garden space.

Not necessarily.

I have a 3 metre by 3 metre kitchen extension already, which makes the length of my garden 20 metres from the kitchen extensions exterior wall, this means I am only allowed to use 11.5 metres in length of my garden and I have already used 3 metres; therefore I have 8.5 metres left in length to use for any buildings in the garden,

You don't really understand this thing called "area", do you.

I can have as many as I like providing that they are 1 metre from each other.

Where did 1m come from?

---> So the conclusion is, you do not need Planning Permission or Building Regualtions

You might need either or both.

and you do not need an architect to draw up the plans for a builder.

You might need plans for a PP or BR submission.

You might actually find depending on the size of your shed and where you buy from, Argos, Littlewoods

You want a workshop. The rubbish they sell in Argos etc will be no good.

you can find/or request reusable bricks on Gumtree, eBay and Free Cycle for next to nothing or completely free

From sources like that they'll all be sorted and cleaned, will they? I doubt it.

If you wanted to turn your shed/workshop into commercial (business) and/or domestic (sleeping accommodation, a guest house) or simply add a toilet for example, you will need to apply for Planning Permission

PP for a toilet? No.

your floor must be thick enough to keep people warm for example or damp and/or mold.

1) That wording is nonsensical.

2) Thickness is not what matters.

Building Regulation may be needed if the building inspector is not happy with the existing building.

Not "may", "will". And it has nothing to do with the BCO being happy, or not, with the original building.

If you are intending to have a toilet, you would have to make sure you build plumbing into your project, but not actually install a toilet for example. It would not be worth including all the pipework, just the minimal that needs to be installed in the ground or walls; especially if you have to run the pipework up the garden, this is expensive and risky of wasting time and money if your Planning Permission; Change of Use is rejected.

You don't need PP for a peepee.

Apparently, the architects I spoke with agreed that if a building already existed in the garden, which could just be a brick shell built to the standard of what you would expect of an extension, but with no doors or windows; was more likely to be accepted Planning Permission into a guest house.

Installing PVC windows into your shed would suggest you built it for the purpose of a guest house without Planning Permission or Building Regulation. They could even question why you have no windows or doors installed - I was advised to try and get some second hand external doors and board the window hole up, explain that it was broken and unsafe.

Where did you find all this nonsense, and why have you pasted it in here?

All you would need to do in order to make it into a guest house is PVC windows,

PVC windows are compulsory are they? Wood or metal not allowed?

installation, radiator, plasterboard, plaster, decoration; skirting, laminate flooring/carpet, magnolia paint, but as I have said "Building Regulation may be needed if the building inspector is not happy with the existing building."

And as I said, it's "will", not "may" and has nothing to do with whether Building Control are "happy" with the building.

By the way, I have no intention of turning into a guest house, although I could rent the space out as a studio for small groups; mother and toddler, children's birthday parties, photography, yoga, mediation, art groups, discussion groups, counselling, teaching, the list is endless and could slightly boost your income (just don't forget to declare it and register it as a commercial business)

All of those uses are incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse are they? No.

you do not need to dig down if you are building a wooden shed

Wrong.

this quote does not include deposing the dirt as I would like to keep it for raised flowerbeds in the future.

Good luck with that.

My advice is to keep it, and then advise it on Gumtree, eBay and Free Cycle for free if collected.

Don't advertise it as topsoil though - people will be upset if they take it to use for growing things, and find it's no good.

I have spoken to some local architects (some with building companies attached to their companies in Birmingham) that have done "garden offices" and "workshop" projects, all said similar advice. I also checked out Planning Portal . gov . uk[/b]

Whereabouts on the Planning Portal does it have all that b*ll*cks about converting existing brick built shells which just happen to have been built to the standards for habitable accommodation?

You can add electric and running water for a sink (workshop purposes) without permission

Wrong.

Do not install a radiator as it will be classed as a separate dwelling without Planning Permission/Building Regulation.

Wrong.

 

[tony1851]

Give the guy a break!

 

[cjard]

Not wishing to go into too much detail..

(detail)

lol

 

[joe-90]

All those sheds with beds in Slough got PP did they? Have they been bulldozed? Nah. They are springing up everywhere with the governments tacit approval.