If starting from scratch what lighting would you get?

[MankyManning]

I am having a lot of work done to my house, single extension to the rear, double at the side and loft conversion. Part of this is a full rewire obviously including new lighting in places like the kitchen (which will have a vaulted ceiling at the back in the extension) and the loft.

I had assumed I would get downlighters with possibly LED based lamps installed. I have no idea whether these would have been mains or 12v ones.

However after having read about a bit it seems far from certain that this would be a good choice. Lots of talk on here about how downlighters are a bit rubbish etc.

So what would people recommend in general. Any other factors I should be considering? I'd like to be as energy efficient as I can given it is essentially a blank piece of paper.

Thanks.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Recessed lighting can be OK, but only in large sizes.

The little 2" diameter ones came out of the retail display market, where they were designed to throw small pools of light onto individual items. Ever noticed how a common term for them is spotlights?

They are actually specifically designed to not be any good for providing general room illumination.

I often refer to them as torches, and if you look at the business end of a Maglite you'll see a marked similarity to an MR16 lamp.


Fiddling with the lamp technology does nothing to address the problems of the format.

In places like kitchens, bathrooms, WCs, possibly hallways and landings where you just want unobtrusive efficient lighting that just gets on and does the job, something like this is ideal:





Or, for kitchens in particular, there's a lot to recommend good old tried and trusted fluorescent strip lights. They don't have to look like this:

For example the top right one here:




or these:

And these are all from one maker.


Fluourescent lights can be dimmed. If you find one you like which isn't dimmable, look to see how easy it would be to replace the ballast with a dimmable one (which you can often find on fleaBay).



But you wouldn't want any of the above in living rooms, dining rooms, bedrooms. Back to looking in lighting shops and websites - cast your net wider than the limited range of cr*p they have in the sheds. As the old saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And if all you do is look in DIY sheds everything that isn't hideous looks like a downlighter.


In terms of basic technology, as well as fluorescent and LED, look into magnetic induction lamps, dielectric barrier discharge lighting (Osram have been sitting on their Planon technology for b****y years, which is a shame), and Electron stimulated luminescence.

If you want LED, again go for larger sizes, e.g. the Thorn BaseLED, which looks good on paper:

http://www.thornlighting.co.uk/download/Base_LED_Brochure.pdf

http://www.thornlighting.co.uk/PDB/Ressource/teaser/E2/TLG_BaseLED.pdf

http://www.thornlighting.co.uk/object/PDF/datasheet.aspx?CompanyID=7&GroupID=12650&CL=E2&CC=GB


Not cheap, though...


Vaulted ceilings can often lend themselves to concealed neon lighting, and you can get cold cathode ones which come in at just under the 1kV limit for low voltage:



here's an example of that in a domestic kitchen showing that it isn't only suitable for nightclubs and hotel foyers:

Untitled

• slup
• 31 Jan 2009
• 16

(Ignore the fact that there are also torches in there )

 

[MankyManning]

Wow - that is a comprehensive answer, lots to consider there, many thanks.

 

[radweld]

In places like kitchens, bathrooms, WCs, possibly hallways and landings where you just want unobtrusive efficient lighting that just gets on and does the job, something like this is ideal:

Ah, BAS, have you actually seen lights like this in use? This light type of light is not intended for domestic applications and is far from 'ideal' in this environment. I recently saw a kitchen where they had been fitted (and was previously considering something similar myself on the basis of comments here). However, I came to the conclusion they were a terrible solution. In particular, they took about a minute to reach full brightness, were not dimmable and, when they eventually came on, emitted a very bright 'clinical' light.

If, as you say, "you just want unobtrusive efficient lighting" they may be satisfactory. However, most people want more than that - they want their domestic lighting to be stylish and create ambience. This is why halogen downlighters have become popular with many people (however misguided you believe they are).

You will notice that the downlighter you linked to is classified as 'commercial/industrial' lighting, and the recommended applications are 'Offices, Computer Rooms, Restaurants and Receptions'.

 

[Aragorn84]

Given they use fairly standard CFL lamps, i cant see why the light would be any more clinical than that from a standard pendant fitted with a CFL?

The appear to be available in a range of color temperatures (a quick google finds a few options from 2700k to 4000k), just like any other CFL, so perhaps the ones you viewed just had crappy lamps fitted?

Warmup time seems like a fair complaint, but i'd guess that depends on the shape of the curve. If its at 70% within 2 secs then takes a minute to come up that last 30% its probably perfectly acceptable.

Not being dimmable may be an issue, but who would want to dim lights in a kitchen anyway?!

Ofcourse i personally havent seen them in a domestic setting, but it sounds to me like the ones you've seen were just badly implemented?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ah, BAS, have you actually seen lights like this in use?

Yes, I have.

In fact I see them every time I go into my kitchen.

This light type of light is not intended for domestic applications

Is it not? That may not be its primary market, but there's nothing unsuitable about it.

and is far from 'ideal' in this environment.

Nonsense.

However, I came to the conclusion they were a terrible solution.

A false conclusion arrived at because of ignorance.

In particular, they took about a minute to reach full brightness,

Ignorance #1: With high-frequency ballasts fluorescent lights don't do that.

were not dimmable

Ignorance #2: If you want dimmable fluorescent lights you can have them, you just need a dimmable ballast.

and, when they eventually came on, emitted a very bright 'clinical' light.

Ignorance #3: Fluorescent lamps are available in different colour temperatures - if you don't want a "clinical" light use a lower one.

If, as you say, "you just want unobtrusive efficient lighting" they may be satisfactory.

That was indeed what I recommended them for.

However, most people want more than that - they want their domestic lighting to be stylish and create ambience.

Do you mean as in "But you wouldn't want any of the above in living rooms, dining rooms, bedrooms"?

This is why halogen downlighters have become popular with many people (however misguided you believe they are).

There's nothing stylish or ambience creating about halogen downlighters.

Unless the ambience you seek is one with a very bright clinical light from your 3000K lamps, which is higher than a warm white fluorescent.

You will notice that the downlighter you linked to is classified as 'commercial/industrial' lighting, and the recommended applications are 'Offices, Computer Rooms, Restaurants and Receptions'.

So? You'll find MR16 downlighters in most of those applications too.

 

[timbim]

In particular, they took about a minute to reach full brightness,

Ignorance #1: With high-frequency ballasts fluorescent lights don't do that.

Really? The HF fitting I installed in my office would beg to differ with that - it doesn't flicker when starting, but takes a couple of minutes to reach maximum brightness, which is significantly brighter than immediately after starting.

 

[radweld]

Given they use fairly standard CFL lamps, i cant see why the light would be any more clinical than that from a standard pendant fitted with a CFL?

It's not just the colour temperature but also the distribution of the light. The down lights I saw gave very even, shadow free illumination. Perfect for a commercial installation, but not very aesthetic in a domestic setting. Pendant lights usually are fitted with shades which significantly affect the light distribution.

Not being dimmable may be an issue, but who would want to dim lights in a kitchen anyway?!

People who uses the kitchen for more than purely food preparation. Many people eat some or all meals in the kitchen, and with the trend to more open-plan living, the kitchen is frequently an integral part of the living space.

If you want dimmable fluorescent lights you can have them, you just need a dimmable ballast.

Yes you can reduce the light output, but I've yet to see a dimmable CFL which creates the same effect as other technologies.

 

[Gigagator]

In my honest opinion, I would agree with BAS and say avoid the halogen spots.

I had a halogen ceiling fitting not too dissimilar to this fitted in a bedroom until recently:

However, it was awful. Light is only cast straight down and the rest of the room is very poorly lit. This leads to shadows when sat at a desk for example so you're left doing paperwork in the dark.

It could take 4 bulbs which was pointless. At 50w a bulb, 3 more made no difference to the problems I just mentioned. They were on a dimmer, which was always on full because the halogens always seemed to be too dark for the room.

Replaced it with a standard ceiling pendant, 9w CFL and a standard light switch and an uplighter shade (very 90's). The new setup, while simple, cheap and easy to install, has vastly improved the general feeling of being in the room with lights on.

My point is that you should consider just keeping it simple. Often the simplest solutions are the best. A pretty light fitting on the ceiling is great in the daytime, but it makes being in your home at night a real chore.

Plus, how can one fail to mention how much heat those ridiculous halogens throw out? They're so inefficient it makes it seem ridiculous that your average incandescent bulbs are being removed from the market and not the halogens!

 

[Graemevw]

The vaulted neon lighting, this is what i had hoped to do in our bathroom.

Ive seen it done before in the hallway of a house modernised in the 1950's, dont know what lights he origionaly used but it had flourescent tubes fitted when i saw it.

Looked good.

 

[Aragorn84]

It's not just the colour temperature but also the distribution of the light. The down lights I saw gave very even, shadow free illumination. Perfect for a commercial installation, but not very aesthetic in a domestic setting. Pendant lights usually are fitted with shades which significantly affect the light distribution.

The output from the standard CFL lamps on the "big light" in my lounge couldnt be described in any other way than "even" and "shadow free". For a functional areas surely this is precisely what you need, and what was provided for years by standard pendant fittings, or even a standard fluro tube. For aesthetic purposes in the lounge we have a pair of uplighting lamps, which also have CFLs, which are used mostly in the evenings when watching TV etc.

People who uses the kitchen for more than purely food preparation. Many people eat some or all meals in the kitchen, and with the trend to more open-plan living, the kitchen is frequently an integral part of the living space.

I guess thats where people differ. Personally i wouldnt want to eat in my kitchen, nor would i want an open plan layout with all the kitchen smells and sounds making their way into the lounge.

Even still, in the actual food preparation area of your kitchen/diner or open plan space, you dont want fancy aesthetic lighting that casts shadows everywhere, you want good functional illumination of your work area.

 

[radweld]

In my honest opinion, I would agree with BAS and say avoid the halogen spots.

Actually I think everybody is agreed on the need to avoid halogens. The OP specifically mentioned LED lights and I only mentioned that halogen spots were very popular, not that they were a good idea.

I had a halogen ceiling fitting not too dissimilar to this fitted in a bedroom until recently:

However, it was awful.

Likewise, I don't think that would surprise anybody. Though suplementary task-specific lighting (i.e. a desk lamp if you were doing paperwork) could be an alternative solution.

I guess thats where people differ. Personally i wouldnt want to eat in my kitchen, nor would i want an open plan layout with all the kitchen smells and sounds making their way into the lounge.

Your question was why would anybody want to dim their kitchen lights? My point is many people would have this requirement, even if you personally do not. It's certainly something I want.

Even still, in the actual food preparation area of your kitchen/diner or open plan space, you dont want fancy aesthetic lighting that casts shadows everywhere, you want good functional illumination of your work area.

Of course. I am just not convinced that B-A-S's industrial downlights are a good way to acheive this.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Of course. I am just not convinced that B-A-S's industrial downlights are a good way to acheive this.

Well - beauty is in the eye of etc, but as you said "of course" to "you dont want fancy aesthetic lighting that casts shadows everywhere, you want good functional illumination of your work area" I admit I am at a loss to understand what you mean by "industrial downlights" as a criticism.

When I look up at the ceiling, I see, basically, this:

A slim white ring against a white ceiling, and a frosted glass circle about 150mm in diameter, out of which comes an even spread of white light.

 

[Aragorn84]

Bas: what sort of area do they cover?

IE how many lamps per m^2 or whatever have you ended up with?

 

[Steve]

Oooh Ban you took my recommendation on those lights?

They are awesome. My kitchen's lit by 52 watts! I have two (2x13w) in a 17sqm kitchen.

Needed new lamps after 18 months of standard useage - this is one downside of these, they dont like being switched on and off a lot and lamp life will be reduced.

But the light they produce is fantastic. I have 9ft ceilings so these are brilliant - in my kitchen the shadow line is about a foot down on the wall, so the spread of light is very good, compared to halogen downlighters.

Unfortunately our lass (who now lives with me) doesnt like them, so I'm now looking towards a false ceiling with LED downlighters and some form of background strip lighting to illuminate the ceiling.