Insulation over LED downlights

[Ben565]

I'm having an upstairs room refurbished. My builder sub contracted the electrical work and the electrician has installed "LAP 3141v" LED downlights. Unfortunatly it was only after the electrician had left that I thought to check if it is ok to put insulation over them top of them. The builder doesn't know though.

I checked online and found that they are NOT suitable to be covered with insulation. You'd have hoped the person installing it would have thought about all this! I mean it's pretty obvious, upstairs room, going to have insulation above it.

So, do I tell the builder they need to come out and be replaced with something suitable for the job?

I read about covers for LED downlights. Would that be a solution?

 

[Iamchamps]

Something like https://www.thermahood.com/

 

[Ben565]

Yes something like that.

I don't quite understand it fully. Those LED's are fire rated, but can't be covered with insulation. Which suggests there is some other issue. They do have what looks like vent holes above them

 

[EFLImpudence]

Fire rated has nothing to do with how hot they get.

It just means fire won't go through them for a period of time because an intumescent material in them that swells and fills any gaps.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't quite understand it fully. Those LED's are fire rated, but can't be covered with insulation. Which suggests there is some other issue.

'Fire rated' merely means that they are designed to not allow a fire in the room below to get through the 'hole' in the ceiling to whatever is above (hence 'fire-rated' fittings are generally only required when there is a different dwelling above - as with flats). 'Fire-rated' has nothing to do with the light catching on fire, or setting fire to things, because of inadequate ventilation.

Kind Regards, John
Edit: typed too slowly again!

 

[donrkebab]

Those LED's are fire rated, but can't be covered with insulation.

They can't be covered in insulation because that would reduce airflow and possibly prevent the intumescent material from getting hot enough to swell up and seal the hole.

 

[donrkebab]

'Fire-rated' has nothing to do with the light catching on fire, or setting fire to things, because of inadequate ventilation.

They need adequate ventilation to work, that's why they must not be covered in insulation or anything else that would reduce airflow.

 

[Ben565]

From what I've read
- fire rated then ok to insulate over
- none fire rated then can't be covered, unless you use a hood and then you can.

Personally I would have thought heat and ventilation is the issue here. Potentially a fire hazard if they were covered over?

What's the solution, I need to insulate over the room.

 

[winston1]

You'd have hoped the person installing it would have thought about all this! I mean it's pretty obvious, upstairs room, going to have insulation above it.

I'm sure s(he) did. I sure s(he) also knew covers were available and thought you would use them.

 

[EFLImpudence]

From what I've read
- fire rated then ok to insulate over
- none fire rated then can't be covered, unless you use a hood and then you can.

No.
Anyway that doesn't match with what you have.

Personally I would have thought heat and ventilation is the issue here. Potentially a fire hazard if they were covered over?

It is.
That is nothing to do with whether they are fire-rated or not.

What's the solution, I need to insulate over the room.

I can't find them online. Have you given the correct model number?
What do the instructions say?

You don't need fire-rated ones as it is your loft above.

 

[SFK]

Ben

LEDs bulbs do get hot, but not as hot as luminescent bulbs.
LEDs and luminescent bulbs now produce about the same amount of light.
LED bulb is say 7W and luminescent bulb is say 50W.
So LED producing say 5W of light and 2W of heat and luminescent say 5W of light and 45W of heat.

So insulation over LED should be less of fire issue than luminescent bulb.

BUT the issue is that LEDs are more sensitive to damage by heat so letting them get hot shortens their lifetime. So best not to directly cover with insulation if possible.

I used Covers as suggested at start by Lamchamps to keep insulation away from Lights.

SFK

 

[EFLImpudence]

They can't be covered in insulation because that would reduce airflow and possibly prevent the intumescent material from getting hot enough to swell up and seal the hole.

Not sure that makes sense.

If the fire can't get through to make the intumescent material work then it can't be hot enough for the intumescent material to work so ...

 

[Ben565]

I can't find them online. Have you given the correct model number?
What do the instructions say?

You don't need fire-rated ones as it is your loft above.

They are screwfix specials https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-fixed-fire-rated-downlight-polished-chrome-230-240v/3141v

I don't have a copy of the instructions, couldn't find them online either

 

[donrkebab]

@EFL - Think of a fire door with intumescent sealing. The door has to be a loose enough fit to allow the hot gases to heat the intumescent material. If it was a tight fit the hot gases could not reach the intumescent material.

 

[SFK]

Donrkebab,
The activation temperature of sodium silicate intumescent is about 110 – 120°C.
My understanding for fire rated lights is that as air temp at ceiling level increase, the metal fixing of light gets hot, and the intumescent material attached to the light expands closing the gap between lamp and ceiling.

For downlights the intumescent does not need any hot airflow through/past the light for the intumescent to expand.
SFK