insulation resistance

[dingbat]

This post demonstrates the insanity of part-p.

Part P is the sensible bit; the inclusion of electrical installations in the Building Regulations. This should have been done many years ago.

Part-P was supposed to improve the safety of domestic electrical installations, but how the hell can this be achieved by letting a 5-day wonder in to start rewiring houses.

The Building Regulations are there to impose a set of minimum standards on construction. You are confusing Part P with measures intended to aid compliance.

Mark, you'll probably learn enough in 5 days to qualify as a DI, but you can't really believe that 5 days will qualify you as a spark... As a time-served spark I think it's ridiculous that a law that was introduced to improve safety (based on dubious stats) has this way of fast-tracking people in to the industry.

The 5-day courses are aimed at people who already carry out electrical work - and have often done so for many years and would probably continue to do so. They are there to provide the minimum electrical installation qualification required for membership of a self-certification scheme. People do fail these courses, all the time, and many then go on to fail on-site assessments. But at least the attendees are making an effort...

...unlike many a time-served spark who is out of date, has forgotten a lot of the theory and simply doesn't care. I see plenty of examples of shoddy work done by time-served electricians. I also see quality work carried out by non-sparks.

At the same time a 20 year spark who is a QC for an NICEIC registered firm cannot rewire his own house without notifying BC.

Oh god, this old chestnut! Nobody is allowed to rewire a house without informing Building Control (the same way that time-served, qualified builders still have to notify BC before building an extension).Members of 'competent persons schemes' have been assessed as competent to self-certify compliance. Bear in mind that without self-certification the operating costs of every domestic electrician would be enormous because practically every job would need to be notified in advance and the BC fee paid. The example you give is completely irrelevant because most LABCs will happily accept an EIC as proof of compliance with BS 7671 and issue a completion certificate accordingly.

Before any of you jump on me bear in mind this is a DIY forum but this guy is installing for profit.

Oh, I agree with you about this poster. He shouldn't be doing what he is doing... but at least he's trying to learn. It's not the 5-day wonders you should be worried about, it's the carry-on-regardless brigade who are un-policed, unqualified, cash-in-hand, underhand and possibly downright dangerous.

 

[markthebuilder]

thanks for the replies going to pick the TD another Rod and a fan today.

yes I was aware that regs say Ze should not exceed 200 I think it can be calculated that a much higher figure would still alow the protective devices to work so my query was how much of a concern is it to experienced sparkys yesterday after rain it was down to 203 what if I test today and get a result of 199 can I say grate it 's passed I can tell you I can't and will be putting in another rod

To expand a little further yes I am doing this work for profit . I don't expect the 5 day wonder to make me an electrician but I do hope that by the time I complete it (december) I will be abel to use the my new OSG, guidance notes 1&3 and my lovely new 1552 effectively.
I will then be abel to demonstrate/prove that my work has been designed installed and tested to BS7671 Then after completing a few jobs designed and installed and tested to 7671 I hope I will be abel to convince the nice man from NICEIC that I am competent enough to sign my own work off. and save a lot of pain with LBCO

It dose seam wrong to me that my Pet sparky very qualified and very experienced can no longer sign my work off but once registered I will be able to sign his off

Prior to the introduction of part P I was doing plenty of elec work that relied totaly on my previous experience and on site training from sparkys when they were employed explaining why things were done a certain way. occasionally a phone call to my pet sparky or the use of a forum such as this would be used to determine the best way of doing specific jobs . on rewires/ newbuild I would have a sparky test the finished installation and resolve any defects but that left a lot of work that wasn't, designed or tested other than for continuity. separation polarity and functionality

around here I know there is plenty of elec work going on for profit by handy men joiners plumbers builders etc that isn't as per BS7671 how long before clients start insisting on test certs etc we will have to see maybe once I'm approved me and the lbco will get quite chatty

 

[scousespark]

In response to Dingbat, the insanity of part-p is in the implementation rather than the intention. It was originally touted as the way to save the 7 or so people dying as a result of fixed wiring faults. Setting up the scheme so that a number of bodies can allow members to self-certify means we have a number of (profit-making) companies looking for as many members as possible. The 5-day scheme is a way of getting as many people on board as possible and I know it's targetted at people like Mark who have been doing electrical work as part of their main job. I know there are lots of people who are perfectly capable and this course suits them. But, it's worrying when you think that people are looking for part-p sparks, unaware that the training they have recieved consits of a couple of days on design/installation another couple of days testing. A further ridiculous element is that the bodies all ask for minimum qualifications but take people on with a 12 month period of grace to get these quals.

The point about the QS was that he cannot automatically self-certify work on his own home, even though he is the person signing for his company. It should not be down to the individual LABC inspector to decide whether to accept the certificate or not.

I completely agree that the non-sparks going down this route should be commending and that the real targets should be the cowboys. Unfortunately what we have is another case of the honest amongst us putting ourselves in the sights of the gvt so we are then easy to monitor.
The cowboys just carry on with their crap work and don't get caught because they are too difficult to track down.

 

[samy7671]

I must say i agree.

I am a builder who has carried out electrical work in the past but know am concerned about keeping everything legal

I attended a domestic installers course, followed by a 2381 course. i am now doing my 2391 and hope to be able to self certify.

On my 2391 course there are 'electricians' who are not members of any schemes. They do not notify or even issue certificates. They have just carried on regardless since the advent of part P. Their excuse is 'Mrs. Jones doesn't want a certificate for a new CU!'

On top of this they are not very competent at all! As a studious kinda guy i have read up many books on electrical installation theory, BS7671, testing and other things, mainly because i am scared of electricity!

I find i have a much better knowledge than these so called electricians. Despite this they continuously mock me every week for being a builder who is studying electrics. They think i should be passing the work onto them.

 

[securespark]

On my 2391 course there are 'electricians' who are not members of any schemes. They do not notify or even issue certificates.

On top of this they are not very competent at all!

That is obvious from their complete contempt for certification.

 

[dingbat]

The cowboys just carry on with their rubbish work and don't get caught because they are too difficult to track down.

Of course they do and don't get caught for the very reason you mention. This happens wherever a profit can be made from ignorance. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with Part P, it is more to do with human nature.

The point about the QS was that he cannot automatically self-certify work on his own home, even though he is the person signing for his company. It should not be down to the individual LABC inspector to decide whether to accept the certificate or not.

Of course a QS for a company should not be allowed to automatically self-certify. He has a position which allows him to carry the can for works done under the legal entity of the company - but what's to stop him bodging it at home (don't say it doesn't happen) unless he is assessed to work under his own name?

As for the building control officer, I'm afraid that the situation is very much that their word is, to all intents and purposes, law.

Anyway, I hear many complaints about Part P and the self-cert schemes and how unfair they are to all those sparks who don't want to be assessed, etc, but I have never yet heard anybody propose a sensible, workable alternative. I suggest we take it on the chin and get on with it. We are not the only people to be 'taxed' through registration and it is unlikely that future governments will dismantle the assessment industry as it forms an increasingly important part of our fragile economy. Look at how much time and money is consumed by the health and safety industry overall!

 

[viewer]

Hi securespark,
Yes it was Lowes. Without wishing to get into the, "electrician/DIY/part p" bit, posters are right. The courses are taken by the interested - those who want to get it right. Nobody ever thinks that they will become a "proper" electrician in a week. The cliche, "You don't know what you don't know" is true, especially with electrics where a dangerous situation will work for years before it kills someone. This course emphasised the limits of the knowledge gained. Anything outside is a "don't know" and expert help should be obtained. I enjoy the continuous learning which comes after the course.
Some professional electricians may be worried that they lose work because of people like myself, but the truth is that nobody would want the tasks in my case. I'm rebuilding my house over a 5-8 year period and living in it at the same time so small steps are undertaken at odd times. A professional could not possibly make a living working this way.
V

 

[scousespark]

I don't want anyone to think I was making any kind of personal attack.
I just saw this post as demonstrating the stupid way Part_P was implemented.

As for how to make it better, wouldn't the NAPIT scheme be a good start making every member prove their competence, with various levels of registration as the NICEIC does with the Limited Scope DI scheme.

The schemes have been in place long enough to say this leeway should be reviewed to see if the minimum quals should be compulsory at registration.

Mark and Viewer demonstrate the different approaches to the 5 day courses. Viewer says he doesn't regard the course as enough training before taking on professional work, and I have met loads of 'old sparks' who regard Part-P as a total waste of time because they've 'forgotten more than the new guys will ever learn' On the other hand Mark has started full rewires before he had the training, but shows he is willing to learn.

 

[plugwash]

Bear in mind that without self-certification the operating costs of every domestic electrician would be enormous because practically every job would need to be notified in advance and the BC fee paid.

EXACTLY.

this self certification idea that has been brought in with later parts of the building regs has allowed them to make a lot more work notifiable than they could have otherwise.

and that has left the general public with only two realistic alternative for minor works in special locations and kitchens. Using a member of one of the self cert schemes and breaking the law.

but then its in the goverments interests to make everyone criminanals, makes it much easier when the goverment wants to f*ck them over.

 

[markthebuilder]

Lets be clear I did my first new build wiring job 20 years ago and there has been a few since along with full rewires Extensions a number of kitchens, garages/workshops/showers etc.
A few times have needed the services of a pet sparky to keep me right and to test my bigger jobs. and where I have subed the work out i have been the sparkys gofa in exchange for learning.

However it is only now because of Part P that I have had to prove the work is done to a standard. I can no longer get a sparky to sign of the work So I have decided to go down the DI rout and do a 5 day wonder. Which I hope will fill in gaps in my knowledge and understanding. or make me fully aware of how much more I need to learn.

Since I bought the books and test gear and started studying I have realize that I have probably been winging it for to long and even started to worry big time if the last job would pass all its checks.

I don't belive the 5 day will make anyone a sparky what % pass the course would make interesting reading and what % of them ever become approved will be another mater .
surely the safeguard is the registering body's who are very happy to take my money but they don't promise to approve me
I am going to have to prove that my design, site work ,recording,etc are up to the job
Perhaps if all sparkys would put there hand in there pocket and get registered they could put some real pressure on the governing bodies to prosecute the real cowboys and make the public fully aware that their weekend project is illegal

 

[scousespark]

I am not having a pop at you Mark, just trying to get a point across.

If I can compare the 5 day route into electrical installation with learning to drive. Most people take a fair few lessons before they are ready for the test, knowing this is a limited test. After passing most people then get a small car and build their experience and confidence. There are a number of people who take a couple of lessons, pass the test and go straight out in a Scooby. The difference being that most drivers on the road don't have years of experience and qualifications which allow them to drive in certain areas but not others.

The truth of Part-P is it's just another tax, and the idea that it is a safety measure is nonsense.

 

[markthebuilder]

no worries paul and I agree it is just another tax in many ways and unfortunately unless the relevant bodies make the public more aware so they insist on part P
And LBCO,NICEIC and others find a way of prosecuting cowboys then its effect health and safety wise will be nill.

However as its required like insurance for the car I do think there are a lot of sparks out there who should do more to promote it by either registering jobs with the lbco if they only have a few a year or getting themselves approved.
Afterall they are not doing there clients any favors if when the client decides to sell in a few years and not having work registered holds everything up etc

 

[dingbat]

Hats off to you, Mark, for coming clean and admitting that you don't actually know how many times in the past you have contravened wiring regulations that you didn't know existed. (I paraphrased!)

I would rather the sparking world was made up of people like you who are making a real effort to learn, than the holier-than-thou time-served 'ignoranti' who work to part-remembered, ancient editions of the regs and refuse to accept that their way is not the only way.

I'll say it again; the majority of 'proper' electricians I meet are a long way short of what I would consider to be an acceptable level of knowledge and their understanding of the legal status of their daily work is woeful, gleaned almost exclusively from site gossip and conjecture. (Just read the pitiful, whining letters in Professional Electrician magazine every month!)