intermediate light switch help

[EFLImpudence]

There is a difference between two-way switch and two-way system.

I thought as long as one knows what is meant the actual word used is unimportant. Now we know what is meant, it presumably must be alright.



A bit like creating a fused spur by connecting it to a fused spur.

Unfused spur ?

Giraffe ?

 

[JohnW2]

There is a difference between two-way switch and two-way system.

There is, indeed - and that's what both eric and myself have recently written. However, at least in the listing which RandomGrinch posted, it would seem that ....

LIVOLO Wall Intermediate Switch Touch Light Switch(No Neutral),Single Pole Bulb Wall Switch with LED Indicator,Scratch-Resistant Tempered Glass Panel,2 Gang 2 Way,White,VL-B602S-3WG​

... is an attempt to describe the switch, not a 'system' - and, as such it is very confusing (at least to me) in several ways (not the least being "Intermediate" and "2 Way") ... and, whilst we are at it, what exactly do you you think "Single Pole Bulb Wall Switch" means?

I thought as long as one knows what is meant the actual word used is unimportant.

Well, you may have immediately known "what it meant", but it will be apparent from my posts that I certainly didn't! As I always say, what matters to me about words is that they facilitate 'clear and unambiguous communication' - and I wouldn't say that the words in question achieved that for me

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

... is an attempt to describe the switch, not a 'system' - and, as such it is very confusing (at least to me) in several ways (not the least being "Intermediate" and "2 Way") ... and, whilst we are at it, what exactly do you you think "Single Pole Bulb Wall Switch" means?

It is clearly gibberish; perhaps a translation by a Chinese person.

Well, you may have immediately known "what it meant", but it will be apparent from my posts that I certainly didn't!

I knew it was gibberish.

As I always say, what matters to me about words is that they facilitate 'clear and unambiguous communication'

Mmmmm.

- and I wouldn't say that the words in question achieved that for me

No, but you know now so it must now be alright.

 

[JohnW2]

It is clearly gibberish; perhaps a translation by a Chinese person. .... I knew it was gibberish.

Yes, we presumably all knew that.

No, but you know now so it must now be alright.

Not really. I thought it would be obvious that what I meant was "... what matters to me about words is that they facilitate 'immediately clear and unambiguous communication' ...", not that their meaning becomes 'clear' after two days' discussion on the Internet

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I have to agree with @JohnW2 the diagrams do not follow the traditional way used to wire up light switches. This is confusing, two way, three way, diagrams only showing wiring for two switches, but pictures showing three switches.

In many ways these switches could be the answer where only twin and earth run between switches and we had a borrowed neutral (really a borrowed line) situation.

But £28.43 is not cheap for a switch, and to have to replace all three means £83.29 to swap system, this is a lot of money.

If I add up cost of automation on my system, then OK cheap, but I did not sit back and decide to get all the switches, and hubs I have in one hit, slowly over time I looked for a cure to a problem, starting with knowing when my mother had escaped, then central heating control, and also some errors, buying a zigbee light bulb not realising I needed a hub, then buying the hub so I could use the bulb.

I watched the video and it made it worse not better, it says at one point you can use an app, and at other point says no wifi support.

I really have no idea reading the advert what it does.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, we presumably all knew that.

"... what matters to me about words is that they facilitate 'immediately clear and unambiguous communication' ..."

How can using the wrong word be unambiguous?

That's not what you say when people correct posters for using the wrong word.
That you might know what they mean does not mean everyone does.

, not that their meaning becomes 'clear' after two days' discussion on the Internet

So, that I knew it was gibberish did not mean everyone did.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I have to agree with JohnW2 the diagrams do not follow the traditional way used to wire up light switches.

They are not traditional switches.

One actually operates the light(s) and others, while exactly the same design, merely COMmunicate with it (when paired with it).

 

[JohnW2]

They are not traditional switches. One actually operates the light(s) and others, while exactly the same design, merely COMmunicate with it (when paired with it).

Quite so ... as I wrote ...

.... What the OP appears to have, on one plate, is two switches (hence "2-gang") with 1-way ("SPST") switch functionality, each of which can be toggled on/off either locally or from a remote switch (via a signal connected to the "COM" terminal). Since the unit needs to know which of the two switches is being addressed remotely, I assume that the 'signal' has to be something more complicated (i.e. 'coded') than just a present/absent voltage.

... and, as I said, to use the marking "COM" (which has a very-long-established meaning) to indicate a "COMmunicate" terminal is just plain confusing

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

How can using the wrong word be unambiguous?

I don't really get your point - a word can be 'wrong' without in any way being 'ambiguous'. If I use the word "giraffe" o refer to my cat, that is obviously wrong, but what I'm saying (incorrectly) is in no way ambiguous.

That's not what you say when people correct posters for using the wrong word.

I may not usually include the word 'immediately' (I suppose because I regard that as implicit/'obvious'), but I do day that what matters about word(s) is that they result in 'clear and unambiguous communication'.

That you might know what they mean does not mean everyone does.

That will occasionally be the case (probably so in the current discussion). However, in the 'usual'/common situations, I find it hard to believe that there are many people for whom someone's use of wrong' word(s) does not (in the context concerned) still result in 'clear and unambiguous communication'. To cite just a few examples...

Writing "plugtop" when they should write "plug"
Writing "fused spur" when they should write "FCU"
Writing "low voltage lamp" when they should write "ELV lamp"
Writing "live" when they should write "line" or "phase"
Writing "Fuse box" when mentioning MCBs within it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I don't really get your point - a word can be 'wrong' without in any way being 'ambiguous'. If I use the word "giraffe" o refer to my cat, that is obviously wrong, but what I'm saying (incorrectly) is in no way ambiguous.

It is to someone who has no idea what you really should have said.

I may not usually include the word 'immediately' (I suppose because I regard that as implicit/'obvious'), but I do day that what matters about word(s) is that they result in 'clear and unambiguous communication'.

So how can calling your cat a giraffe result in that?

That will occasionally be the case (probably so in the current discussion). However, in the 'usual'/common situations, I find it hard to believe that there are many people for whom someone's use of wrong' word(s) does not (in the context concerned) still result in 'clear and unambiguous communication'. To cite just a few examples...

Writing "plugtop" when they should write "plug"
Writing "fused spur" when they should write "FCU"
Writing "low voltage lamp" when they should write "ELV lamp"
Writing "live" when they should write "line" or "phase"
Writing "Fuse box" when mentioning MCBs within it.

None of those is unambiguous if the person hearing/reading it for the first time does not know to what you are referring.


"Cardiff is the capital of Scotland"

Which is the wrong word? I bet you cannot guess correctly at the first attempt.

 

[RandomGrinch]

"Cardiff is the capital of Scotland"

Which is the wrong word? I bet you cannot guess correctly at the first attempt.

Aah, the classic gedankenexperiment - Schrödinger's CApiTals....

 

[EFLImpudence]

Ja ?

 

[JohnW2]

It is to someone who has no idea what you really should have said.

No. "Ambiguous" means 'open to more than one (specific) interpretation; not having one obvious meaning'. If I tell someone (who knows nothing about me or my pets) that I am "going to take my giraffe to the vet", there is only one possible meaning to the (obviously 'wrong') statement - and there is no other possible interpretation of the words of my statement - so not ambiguous.

None of those is unambiguous if the person hearing/reading it for the first time does not know to what you are referring.

As above, 'ambiguous' requires that there be alternative (specific) interpretations, which isn't really the case with any of them. In any event, I think you're giving too much consideration to the 'unambiguous' of my "clear and unambiguous communication" statement, since it's the "clear" which is by far the most important (and, in fact, implies 'unambiguous', so I really could omit that word) .

"Cardiff is the capital of Scotland" .... Which is the wrong word? I bet you cannot guess correctly at the first attempt.

[I'm not sure what this has got to do with anything, but...] .... Of course I can't. Neither of the words is, individually, 'wrong' - it's the (incorrect) claimed relationship between them which is wrong. I suppose that, once one had decided that the statement as a whole is incorrect, one might 'assume' (always dangerous that the statement as a whole (not individual words) is 'ambiguous', in that one might 'assume' (again!!) that the intended statement was either "Cardiff is the capital of Wales" or "Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland".

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

This thread appears to have switched from intermediate to intermediary.

 

[IJWS15]

Surely if the original DETA was OK all the OP needs to do is buy a new DETA intermediate from somewhere like CEF. There are other suppliers and other brands.