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Is it possible to increase water-level in washer--with fully electronic sensor--no pressure-switch?

Discussion in 'Appliances' started by AlastairE, 2 Dec 2015.

  1. AlastairE

    AlastairE

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    Seems these days, these newer washers don't wash well because the amount of water they take in is just so little.

    The little water also seems to contribute to the drum-spiders rotting out, as the middle part (Where they fail) never gets flushed out properly during a rinse stage....

    Most it seems have electronic level monitoring using a pressure-sensor on the control-board. Without getting into the machine's firmware with a PC connected and appropriate software--Is there any way to make them take in more water--increasing the level a bit...?
     
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  3. rocks1

    rocks1

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    In short no you can't
     
  4. AlastairE

    AlastairE

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    Ive been thinking about this.....

    I'm sure you Can!

    The arrangement's like this.

    The pressure-sensor is connected to the drum by a specific length and diameter pipe.

    With no water--the pipe is open to the air, at some level near/at the bottom of the drum.

    As water fills the pipe at the drum bottom it becomes covered, and as water rises starts to pass up the pipe--But the air in the pipe counteracts this--as its effectively sealed the Other end by the diaphragm/whatever in the level sensor, so the Air Compresses and pressurises.

    At some pre-determined PRESSURE of the air in that pipe above the water-level, the sensor outputs whatever signal the electronics are looking for to tell the machine has filled with the required (stupidly low) water-level.

    As this is a Pressure thats being looked at--Just like the old pressure-switch,--all thats needed is to reduce that pressure until a higher level is achieved.

    Easy!

    Increase the Volume of (Compressable) Air in the area above the water-level in the pipe.

    So--Add we'll say, 6" of same diameter/type pipe to the existing pressure line will do that. How much increase in Water level, a 6" piece of pipe will have, we'll have to determine by experiment....

    Maybe we can come up with a chart showing how much water-level increase for X amount of extra pipe added....
     
  5. AlastairE

    AlastairE

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    Ive thought out how to make this setting Adjustable pretty easily.

    Instead of a section of pipe added--How about adding into that sensor's pipe a 'Tee' piece and joining this to a syringe, say--2-5mL one..
    --Syringe plunger position will govern the extra volume of air added to the pipe and therefore the point at which the machine stops taking in water....

    I'll get the necessary parts/pipe/Tee/syringe together and give this a try next few days....

    Great care will obviously be needed to ensure that the joins and syringe connections are well made and cant just come undone--This would cause the machine to overfill maybe flood....
     
  6. rocks1

    rocks1

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    So when the machine fills up over the door bowl and on 60 or 90 degrees and the door opens or the glass breaks due to heat you will end up with red scolded feet. And a flood plus it can over boil and melt the drum causing a fire. No machine water level goes above the ridge on the inner drum cos of this. Only on rinse which is cold water only. But if you can do this then go ahead and any Warrenty claim will be avoid.
     
  7. AlastairE

    AlastairE

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    Warranty --On a 10 year old machine!--Thats a good one! Haha....

    Overboil?--Why would it overboil??--Thermostat/temp control/water-heating still unaffected by water-level,--different control-system.

    Melt the drum--Cause a fire???

    --With a Stainless drum, And outer Tub--That would be summit to see--I would PAY to see THAT!!

    Miele made machines--Properly, none of yer Plastic Crap! --(all be it complying with the dim-witted ill thought out stupid spoon-whittling Greenie Directives of low water use)

    I wasn't thinking of increasing the water-level THAT much! Only about an inch or so--And still below the drum inner rim, and therefore, Below the door seal level....

    --You're right though, The water-levels will all be increased by the same amount--so for delicates and proper rinses, it'll be at its highest, and still well below drum centreline.

    --Currently, on a normal wash cycle, the water is only about 1" deep in the drum,--Enough to fully wet the clothes--over a period of time, as the thing cycles the water inlet to maintain this level from dry to fully wet clothes--Takes about 5 minutes and between 3 and 5 water inlet cycles......
     
    Last edited: 3 Dec 2015
  8. AlastairE

    AlastairE

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    Just measured the water-levels with a ruler.

    Std wash cycle, 60 degrees, -- 1" depth.
    Std wash cycle, with water + --2" depth

    Quick-wash 40, --2" depth.--Same with water +

    The rim of the inner drum is 3.6" to the bottom of the rotating inner drum.

    Door-seal is approx level with the inner drum lip.

    So--If I Increase by one inch the water-level, all the above will be 1" more. So--Deepest will be with say, std wash with water+ and be 3", Still over half an inch Below the Drum lip and below the door seal by a similar amount.

    I see NO issues with this, only benefits.
     
    Last edited: 3 Dec 2015
  9. jj4091

    jj4091

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    You seem to be contradicting yourself, in your first post you talk about new machines not washing well because of lack of water & then say you have a 10 year old Miele, if I am understanding subsequent posts correctly.
    If you are concerned about water levels in new machines then you don't need to be, because most machines now use a recirculating pump & so don't rely on the water being sat in the bottom of the drum. A problem that might be caused by increasing the amount of water in an old or a new machine could be that the clothes would absorb more available water & therefore cause problems with load balancing & increase wear on drum components.
    If I was concerned about machines not washing clothes properly I would be looking at detergent & programme selection not the water level. Machines are thoroughly tested before they go to market & a manufacturer would be stupid trying to sell a machine that did not wash properly.
     
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  11. AlastairE

    AlastairE

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    Right. Water-levels have been an issue for many years--Believe it or not. There's Huge amount of people (Anecdotal granted) that claim newer washers Dont clean as well as Older.
    --Even Loads of videos on youtube describing How to adjust pressure-switches for water level increase.....

    Now--Who is to blame? Makers of washers?--NO it Isnt Them to be honest!

    A little tome called, Agenda-21. A multi-hundred page document that describes how we are to live our lives in the 21st century.

    Did you know, that from 2011 on, 5Kg Washers were allowed to use 80 litres for a complete wash to completion cycle?

    Did you know that from 2013, that the allowed water use for the same/equivalent new model 5Kg washer has been reduced to just 60 litres of water?

    60L of water Sounds like a Lot--But it really Isnt. Consider that a large washing-up bowl is around 18-20L to the brim.
    --So, makers make the machine use say, 20L for a wash, and then two 20L rinse stages for the complete cycle, or three rinses using even less water.
    The total allowable used must still be under or at 60L....

    They,--The Makers,- have come up with many dodges to try and increase efficiency with recirc pumps in some cases, --not bothering at all in others (The cheapos), but the upshot is--There's just Not enough water in the machine to do a Good job--regardless of the detergent used.

    Dont get me started on the daft LOW TEMPERATURE wash cycles! From 2013, they are also insisting that all washers are able to do a 20 degree wash--Whats the point in That!--Might as well just do aerobics in the rain and forget the washer completely!

    All Makers are obliged to abide by the Directives implemented and adopted from Agenda-21 via the various EU Agencies etc (Environment Agency here in UK, EPA in USA), so ALL New washers are equally as (Bad) good at washing as any other NEW Machine. Makers don't really care--nothing they can do really if they want to sell their (Now Crap) machines, the machines only last about 4-5 years anyway before they rot out and throw a spider--again due to too little water IMHO.

    Particularly of interest, are the low rinse levels for Allergy sufferers, Very often the poor rinse cycles are causing these folk problems.....

    My question and experiment wasn't because my machine doesn't wash well, more an observation and a possible solution to a known (Anecdotal) issue, --If I end up making my machine wash a little better--well, Job's a good-un.....

    As to imbalances before spin, due to excess water retention in the clothes--The normal rinse cycle (Of my machine) uses more water than the wash--Up to the door-seal--so the washing is pretty well saturated--cant get wetter, so this is a non issue!
     
  12. JohnD

    JohnD

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    What do you hope to achieve with this thread, Alastair?
     
  13. AlastairE

    AlastairE

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    Well--Odd question.....

    Purely a method of increasing water-level in Electronically monitored machines, --seeing this is a discussion-forum. I am surprised however by the Negative attitude to the question, no help or ideas--only negative non-issues like flooding or burning me house down have been presented.....

    I added the above post concerning Ajenda-21 to outline Why and How the water-levels/consumption of machines has been brought about--Everyone blames the Makers--But it Ain't Them!

    --I apologize if this appears non-relevant!
     
  14. JohnD

    JohnD

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    have you tested your hypothesis that the reduced water content is a cause of poor performance?

    For example by reviewing independent tests of washers to see if there is a correlation?

    Or by tipping water into yours using a kettle into the soap drawer?
     
  15. jj4091

    jj4091

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    I suspect it is because many people, me included, won't see why you have such a concern about it. I have never been called to a machine with a complaint that it is not washing the clothes clean & I personally have never had a problem with my own machines. If you personally have then fair enough & good luck to you in your quest, but it sounds like you might be contemplating modifying or hoping to modify other peoples machines on a professional level rather than an amateur one & your idea sounds fraught with problems & as I doubt anyone else that contributes here, has tried to do what you are hoping or wanting to do, and they are suggesting possible problems you might encounter. I also thought this section of the forum was for people to share their expertese with people wanting to repair their own machines, even if that might mean telling them it was not a good idea to try to do it.
    As for the 20 degree wash, I think that would be a good idea as usually the only thing soiling our clothes is sweat which would be easily removed at that temperature.
    As you seem to be getting the answers you are looking for from u-tube why ask here?
     
  16. AlastairE

    AlastairE

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    Hmm--

    By profession, I'm an electronics engineer. I certainly Wouldn't be offering to mod Anybody's machine for free--Or otherwise--Or for that matter do any repairs to any washer--save attempts to my own and those of close family!

    As to 20 deg C washes--May remove sweat--But it Doesn't kill the bacteria that cause fiesty/mouldy smells, and neither does washing-powder--For That, You need Heat! (Or buy yet another product to chuck into the machine or pre-treat clothes to kill the bacteria.....)
     
  17. OwainDIYer

    OwainDIYer

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    which is what I have to do every time I want to wash more than two shirts.
     
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