There was nothin worng with the cruise ship - it was the idiot piloting it that was at fault. Rocks generally do not move around the sea of their own accord!
Is moving a light switch in the kitchen allowed/notifiable?
- Thread starter acmedone
- Start date
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True it didn't hit the rocks because of it, but there was a great deal wrong with the design of the ship.
i was in the navy for many years, either you are an expert in ship design, or a complete idiot who just makes wild statments just for the hell of it.
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There certainly would be problems, but I suspect that some such system could be made to work (sensibly) if people really wanted it to. I would certainly welcome some system which facilitated some random 'checking' (by whoever, not necessarily LABC) of any electrical work (whether currently notifiable or not) whether or not undertaken by self-certifying electricians.
Kind Regards, John[/quote]
Sorry for coming back to an older post.
The issue diyers have is around the cost of notification. That's fair comment for discussion, as the costs may be out of proportion to the size of job.
Your arguments around professionals notifying is based on what?
As an electrician, I don't do a cuple of jobs properly, so I can get through an inspection. I do them all properly, so I know my customers are safe. I have qualifications, which relate dierectly to the job i do for a living. The assessors are qualified, to a level which enables them to assess my work and knowledge and determine whether I satisfy the scheme requirements. If I pass this, I'm okay to self-certify for another year.
You have said you don't do this for a living (and appear never to havce done so) but have seen enough examples of bad practice to make you decide the only way to have a safe industry is to have every domestic job notified and scrap the scheme.
It does seem you are more than a little peeved, that there isn't a special category for very clever people to self-cert.
All sorts of issues have got muddled in this discussion - which primarily/ initially (per thread title) was about the total mess of Schedule 4, and the ridiculous and/or torturous discussions/arguments as as to how a non-self-certifying person can try to argue that all manner of things are non-notifiable. So long as there are significant (many would say excessive) financial implications, such attempts to find loopholes would probably continue no matter how much Schedule 4 was 'improved' - which led to my suggestion that the only way to put a stop to all that would be to make everything notifiable (no matter who did it), leaving LABC to decide which of the works needed inspection and which didn't. The works which didn't would presumably include those undertaken by self-certifying electricians and also many of the minor works which currently are not notifiable (whoever did them) - but without the 'over-interpretation' of the current Schedule 4 that many DIYers would like to attempt. If everythinhg was notifiable, the fee for 'notification only' (i.e. when no LABC ispection is involved) would obviously have to be very low - probably just as it currently is with self-certification.
No-one (well, certainly not me!) is talking about scrapping of self-certification schemes (which won't happen). For those who do self-certify, for everything to become notifiable would make virtually no difference, so I don't see why you should have a problem with that, even if some of the work randomly inspected was work which would not currently be notifiable.
All I have said, a good few times, is that (in any field), regular re-assessment of knowledge any capabilities is theoretically not enough to give total confidence. If undertaken properly, they indicate that someone is capable of doing their job properly, but do not prove that is what they do 'in between assesments' - and that is why so many professions have 'audit' procedures as well as qualifications and assessments. I'm sure that most electricians are like you, always doing the jobs properly, but the fact that someone passes an annual assessement doesn't in any way prove that. All it would really need is that at least part of that annual assessment should be based on inspection of randomly selected peices of work you'd undertaken during the previous year (rather than work done 'for the assessment') - and I assume that you, and most electricians, would have no problem with that.
I always seem to get into trouble when I introduce driving analogies. However, the fact that someone passes a driving test, driving safely and within speed limits etc. during the test, does not mean that there don't have to be systems in place to identify dangerous or over-speed driving in those who have got licences - and the same would be true even if we all had to take driving tests every year.
I'm not sure that 'peeved' is the word, but .... I have freely admitted that, particularly when I see some of the frightening posts in forums like this, I am sometimes tempted to suggest that DIY electrical work should be banned, except for myself (and a few others like myself - who are very atypical DIYers) - but that is obviously a ridiculous and arrogant (not to mention unworkable) suggestion!
Kind Regards, John.
I agree Schedule 4 is a mess, but this is mainly due to the decison to treat kitchens and bathrooms as special locations. This is where the added diy cost is generated.
Your concern with assessing electricians would have merit, if there was any evidence that people were being electrocuted, or electrical fires were braeking out all over the country after Domestic Installers had been in to carry out any work. This is not the case. I don't know what you think happens during annual assessments.
I can understand why fully qualified electricians have an issue with not being able to self-cert a domestic job, without registering. I belive that some councils accept the test results for those guys, which drops the cost.
However, just what is that makes you believe that you (and a handful of others such as yourself) should be able to self cert?
You've obviously read up on the subject, but that doesn't mean the standard your work is beyond any other untrained diyer. I have fitted a bathroom, but I wouldn't dream of posting in the plumbers section, that I should be regarded above any other diy plumber.
Your concern with assessing electricians would have merit, if there was any evidence that people were being electrocuted, or electrical fires were braeking out all over the country after Domestic Installers had been in to carry out any work. This is not the case. I don't know what you think happens during annual assessments.
I can understand why fully qualified electricians have an issue with not being able to self-cert a domestic job, without registering. I belive that some councils accept the test results for those guys, which drops the cost.
However, just what is that makes you believe that you (and a handful of others such as yourself) should be able to self cert?
You've obviously read up on the subject, but that doesn't mean the standard your work is beyond any other untrained diyer. I have fitted a bathroom, but I wouldn't dream of posting in the plumbers section, that I should be regarded above any other diy plumber.
I'm the OP. No there isn't 3m clearance.
But I still at loss to understand the busybodys' reasons for making kitchen & bathroom "special". Putting a light or socket in a particular position is either dangerous or it isn't. If the former it shouldn't be done. Telling a busybody about it doesn't make it safe.
I think the argument is that in most situations, getting it wrong stands a good chance of not killing someone. For example, if you missed off the earth on a socket, then there's a good chance it'd have no effect, or if there is it will give someone a survivable belt and they'll realise - eg if you are in a dry room, stood on carpet, wearing socks etc.
Make that same mistake in a room where body contact is likely to be much better - wet hands holding a tap, body immersed in a bath, etc - then the likely current, and hence consequences, are significantly increased. I suspect this is where some of the measurements come from (eg zoning in bathrooms, the "3m from sick" bit that used to be in the building regs) - once you get more than reaching distance between water and electricity, the risk drops significantly.
And of course, the scope for inappropriate equipment selection/location is increased - eg putting an unsuitable socket where it is liable to get soaked. Similarly for sockets outside etc.
What makes it farcical of course is that the same restrictions don't apply to other areas with similar risks - as someone pointed out, a utility room is likely to have much the the same risks as a kitchen.
It's obvious that the busybodies have attempted to strike some sort of balance - but I think we all agree they got it a bit wrong in it's scope and implementation.
Sorry, missed a bit out ...
The thing is, in the past people were fitting (eg) a socket in a dangerous location - you should have seen what a kitchen fitter did in a friends kitchen prior to "Part P" and notification coming along
I redid all the electrics.
Now we have mandatory notification in some area/for some work, the theory is that the work will either :
1) Be done by someone who knows what they are doing, and so (for example) won't fit an unsafe socket.
2) If it's done by someone not registered, LABC will inspect it and be able to spot any dangerous works and have it corrected.
The problem is that there is still option 3 - someone who doesn't realise that they don't know enough can still do it dangerously.
But at least option 3 has been more or less cut off for (eg kitchen/bathroom fitters) who used to be doing just that - they now either have to sub out the electrical work, or employ someone who knows what they are doing and is registered, or face a massive financial penalty of paying LABC notification fees.
The thing is, in the past people were fitting (eg) a socket in a dangerous location - you should have seen what a kitchen fitter did in a friends kitchen prior to "Part P" and notification coming along
I redid all the electrics.Now we have mandatory notification in some area/for some work, the theory is that the work will either :
1) Be done by someone who knows what they are doing, and so (for example) won't fit an unsafe socket.
2) If it's done by someone not registered, LABC will inspect it and be able to spot any dangerous works and have it corrected.
The problem is that there is still option 3 - someone who doesn't realise that they don't know enough can still do it dangerously.
But at least option 3 has been more or less cut off for (eg kitchen/bathroom fitters) who used to be doing just that - they now either have to sub out the electrical work, or employ someone who knows what they are doing and is registered, or face a massive financial penalty of paying LABC notification fees.
That's certainly part of it, but the problem goes far beyond that. As you will have seen from some of the more 'ridiculous' (in terms of common sense) discusions here the actual wording used for Schedule 4 is so poorly thought through that people are able to present arguments that, in terms of 'the word of the law' (but certainly not the spirit), almost anything is non-notifiable. That's crazy.
Indeed it's not - and, as we've discussed many times before, exactly the same is true of work (no matter how bad) carried out by non-electricians. As we've discussed, if electrocutions and serious fires due to poor electrical were to be the criteria, then they are so rare that there would be a compelling argument for not having any regulation of electrical work at all.
Of course not, and I've never suggested that. What clearly is true is that 'DIYer' (in any field) covers a whole spectrum of knowledge, capabilities, experience and facilities and that there are therefore inevitably (in any field) a few of us who are closer to one end of that spectrum than many others. However, you surely must realise that I was merely responding to your suggestion that I was 'peeved', with an honest statement of what goes on in my mind. Given that there is a distinction between qualified electricians and others, then it is ridiculous and unthinkable that I should ever be categorised as anything but a 'non-electrician'. I have absolutely no doubt that, if I ever had the time and inclination, I could easily acquire the qualifications - but that's never going to happen so I will always be regarded by officialdom and regulations as a 'non-electrician', just like all the others - which is, in practical terms, how it has to be.
Kind Regards, John.
Yes, one has to assume that this was the gist of the thinking, but one cannot help but sympathise with those who wonder how that applies to, say, lights on a kitchen ceiling.
Quite so - and that is but one example ....small toliets with basins but no shower/bath, bedrooms with basins etc.etc.
Agreed. At some level their heart was in what they thought was the right place - but I think they got the scope and implementation more than 'a bit' wrong. I suppose one of the greatest problems is that got it so wrong in some senses (to the extent, as you say, of being farcical) as to cause a good few people to treat the whole thing with contempt.
Kind Regards, John.
Plus it's disparaged by the paranoid, frightened "big government" loonies, and those who, despite all the evidence of LABCs doing their damnedest to discourage unregistered notifications, think it's some kind of tax or money-making scheme.
NB - I use the word "think" in the loosest possible sense
NB - I use the word "think" in the loosest possible sense
Posting at 2:26am on a schoolday? You no got a job to go to BAS?!
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