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Is the world teetering at the very edge?
- Thread starter empip
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Lets look at recent history shall we...pickles said:
The US invades Iraq, and they have no nuclear deterent...
NK prevents US aggression (in it's view) against itself because they have a nuclear deterrent..
The US threatens Iran as a member of the axis of evil..
So why do you think Iran wants them?....what's the point? - well depending on your view it's either an agressive weapon (pointless as you've pointed out due to other countries having a DETERENT!)..
Or maybe Iran just wants a deterent to prevent aggression against it's own territory!!
Did I compare them 'like for like'?...I was merely pointing out that 'elected terrorists' (not unlike hamas who the US won't even talk with!) were allowed to build nuclear weapons, and there are double standards at work here!
You're right...but then I'd be happier if right wing christian zealots, or fanatical jewish elements weren't able to access nuclear weapons either!!
I wonder what peoples viewpoint is of when a person or persons become fanatical and whether this strike first ask questions later attitude could also be looked on as fanatical? certainly if the action was directed at ourselves we'd be worried but as it's someone else facing that terrible decision then the why do we need to worry mentality sets in.
In a world full of nuclear devices to say one can and the other can't have access to these horrific weapons is lording over another and asking for resentment if you wish to preach then show willingness to disarm first.
Whilst the threat of Israel proposing to launch these weapons which in my view should all be banned is still very much on the agenda then how can we not expect those threatened to trust their enemies in any way, shape or form?
If Israel wants justification for Iran to pull the plug on supposedly making nuclear weapons then they should disarm themselves to show willingness to approach the negotiation table, the current Israeli arrogance will not win any support from others wanting peace, only from those who constantly show defiance of any moves towards a peaceful solution.
In a world full of nuclear devices to say one can and the other can't have access to these horrific weapons is lording over another and asking for resentment if you wish to preach then show willingness to disarm first.
Whilst the threat of Israel proposing to launch these weapons which in my view should all be banned is still very much on the agenda then how can we not expect those threatened to trust their enemies in any way, shape or form?
If Israel wants justification for Iran to pull the plug on supposedly making nuclear weapons then they should disarm themselves to show willingness to approach the negotiation table, the current Israeli arrogance will not win any support from others wanting peace, only from those who constantly show defiance of any moves towards a peaceful solution.
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None of this will happen. China gets its oil from Iran. An attack on Iran would send China back to being a land of peasants. An attack by America on Iran would be the same as China attacking Saudi Arabia - WW3.
If terrorists are going to get nuclear material it will be from the old Eastern Bloc where it would be a deal over money rather than politics or ideology.
If terrorists are going to get nuclear material it will be from the old Eastern Bloc where it would be a deal over money rather than politics or ideology.
ellal said:
I still can't see your Stern Gang analogy. They disbanded after failing to win any seats in the 1951 election so they never formed any part of a government and in no way were allowed to develop these weapons. For the record most of the technology came from France not America so presumably your allegation of double standards is aimed at them. Many of the scientists on the Manhattan project were Jewish with close ties to Israel so it would actually be more accurate to say that some of Israels scientists were the original source of the technology.
How can Iran deter anyone with a bomb, no ones threatening them with destruction, they are the ones issuing threats mainly against Israel. They have no natural enemies, Iraq is in chaos and everyone else just want's to buy their oil. How are they going to deter America with their bomb. They couldn't reach America with a warhead and if America invaded they would have to bomb themselves. Your just not making sense. All Iran has to do is abandon it's programme, stop threatening people and get on with selling it's oil and no one is going to bother them. The problem is that this is an ideological confrontation over race territory and religion. What they want is a weapon to threaten Israel with. It's just about their own expansionist ambitions in the gulf, they want to be the regional superpower, it's nothing more than that.
Wouldn't we all like the world to disarm Ellal but pigs might fly. The evidence is that the right wing zealots have never used those weapons through all the trials of the cold war and neither have fanatical Jewish elements even when they had half the Egyptian army in their backyard and couldn't stop them in the Yom Kippur war. Lets just hope the Iranians are as restrained.
pickles said:
Last I heard, France was part of 'The West'...so you can debate about where they got the technology as much as you like, but it was 'The West' (incl America) that allowed them to build their weapons without threatening action against them as they do the Iranians...!!
And by the way, some leaders of Israel were at various times members of a 'terrorist organisation' (as defined by a western power), so why allow them this weapon when we threaten an elected government of a different sovereign country for attempting to possess the same - Iran may not be our idea of democracy, but then I doubt you'd be able to sell the idea of a 'democratic government' being elected on 22% of an electorate to them!!
As for No-one threatening Iran..don't make me laugh! Tell me, what tyrant was backed by America (and the west) in it's war against Iran, and which government has issued threatening rhetoric against Iran post 9/11 when they have no evidence of involvement?
Iran doesn't have to threaten America directly to have a deterrent - it's you that isn't making sense!
So then, all Iran has to do is...'abandon it's programme, stop threatening people and get on with selling it's oil and no one is going to bother them'? - you forgot to add, 'and do as they're told'!...well guess what, maybe they want to 'get on with things' their way, and not be told what to do by the West!...and maybe they also want to be able to keep hold of their own natural resources!
Unfortunately solutions will never be found when there are enough people like you around that cannot see that EACH side has legitimate grievances and issues that need to be addressed equally - not a 'we are right, they are wrong' approach based on a pathetic 'superiority complex' and a (conveniently) skewed view of history..!
You just don't like having your lefty knee jerk reactions challenged. Don't start taking it personally.
Iran like to do things their own way, like what, hanging women from cranes for adultery and sixteen year old boys for being gay. Raping ageing female political activists in jail. Oppressing women. Your dead right I have got a superiority complex, it's not hard to have one is it. Iran is a sterile theocracy run by ageing religious zealots with no sense of the modern world and some hick town country boy who thinks he's a prophet reborn. I wouldn't mind but when they aren't busy issuing threats they spend the rest of the time sending out the police to crush the internal dissent from their own population over their ridiculous domestic policies. Try having a debate like this on an internet forum in Iran.
They live in the dark ages and it's about time they dragged themselves into the 21st century. If you can come up with any good reason at all why they should have nuclear weapons with their attitudes I just can't wait to hear it.
Where's their great enemy Iraq now, on its knees with it's pro Iranian Shia majority in control. America has made a strategic error of huge proportions and played right into their hands, they are sitting pretty on billions of gallons of oil with no enemies on their borders. There is absolutely no reason why they are developing nuclear weapons other than because they want to.
By the way, you still haven't explained who it is they are detering with their nuclear bomb. Iraqs on it's knees, America's fighting a war on two fronts and all the countries to the East, Afghnistan, Pakistan etc are Islamic nations. So who is it they are detering from attacking them exactly.
Iran like to do things their own way, like what, hanging women from cranes for adultery and sixteen year old boys for being gay. Raping ageing female political activists in jail. Oppressing women. Your dead right I have got a superiority complex, it's not hard to have one is it. Iran is a sterile theocracy run by ageing religious zealots with no sense of the modern world and some hick town country boy who thinks he's a prophet reborn. I wouldn't mind but when they aren't busy issuing threats they spend the rest of the time sending out the police to crush the internal dissent from their own population over their ridiculous domestic policies. Try having a debate like this on an internet forum in Iran.
They live in the dark ages and it's about time they dragged themselves into the 21st century. If you can come up with any good reason at all why they should have nuclear weapons with their attitudes I just can't wait to hear it.
Where's their great enemy Iraq now, on its knees with it's pro Iranian Shia majority in control. America has made a strategic error of huge proportions and played right into their hands, they are sitting pretty on billions of gallons of oil with no enemies on their borders. There is absolutely no reason why they are developing nuclear weapons other than because they want to.
By the way, you still haven't explained who it is they are detering with their nuclear bomb. Iraqs on it's knees, America's fighting a war on two fronts and all the countries to the East, Afghnistan, Pakistan etc are Islamic nations. So who is it they are detering from attacking them exactly.
It's funny isn't it, that when someone doesn't agree with an approach that doesn't take into account the viewpoint of the other side, they are labelled with something like 'lefty'..."yawn", change the record!
You're absolutely right about some of the practices in Iran - but then the actions of Israel in Palestinian lands, and the sometimes scant regard that the invaders of Iraq hold for collateral damage (otherwise known as civilians..) is as equally abhorrent!
Nice try to turn the debate around into why I should try advocate that they should have them, when I have stated the opposite - but I also explained that I can understand why they MIGHT want them!!
And you still don't understand that Iran sees America/Israel etc as a threat...Iraq had no borders with the 'coalition of the willing', and yet was still attacked.
But you have hit the nail on the head..." they are sitting pretty on billions of gallons of oil"...
Oh, and try having this debate outside our Parliament - freedom of speech is relative!
ps...give that cat an extra plate of whiskas...
You're absolutely right about some of the practices in Iran - but then the actions of Israel in Palestinian lands, and the sometimes scant regard that the invaders of Iraq hold for collateral damage (otherwise known as civilians..) is as equally abhorrent!
Nice try to turn the debate around into why I should try advocate that they should have them, when I have stated the opposite - but I also explained that I can understand why they MIGHT want them!!
And you still don't understand that Iran sees America/Israel etc as a threat...Iraq had no borders with the 'coalition of the willing', and yet was still attacked.
But you have hit the nail on the head..." they are sitting pretty on billions of gallons of oil"...
Oh, and try having this debate outside our Parliament - freedom of speech is relative!
ps...give that cat an extra plate of whiskas...
ellal said:More likely a 'pin in the map' approach...Richardp said:U.S. attacks Somalia,how do they do it ? is it just boredom ?
More like joined up thinking at last. Bankroll the next door country to do the fighting for you and take the casualties. Then, kill anyone you want that gets flushed out in the fighting.
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