Is this a massive job?

[whoschuffed]

Hi all, I am in the process of buying a house.
It currently has a narrow galley kitchen which is c. 2.6m x 1.7m, I would like to remove one of the walls to open it up to the dining room.

As well as this, there is an a small, single skin outbuilding of c. 1.5m x 1.5m attached onto the end of the kitchen supporting a small slate roof which is accessed through a door at the end of the kitchen and acts as a make shift utility with a UPVC door into the garden.

This outbuilding is a lower level than the rest of the house. I'm thinking i'll need the outhouse to be insulated/or double skinned (which ever is best), the UPVC door removing and bricking up, the rear kitchen wall knocking through so that the outhouse now becomes part of the kitchen and the floor raising so that it is all the same level.

I'm fairly sure 2 x RSJ's will be required, one for the internal wall which will be removed to open the kitchen up to the dining room and the second one for the part of the rear kitchen wall which will be removed to open the outhouse into the kitchen. The rear kitchen wall is the a double skin cavity wall and the opening will be about 1.8m. The internal wall being removed is about 2.7m.

I've done some pretty crude plans to show what I mean...

Untitled

• whoschuffed
• 24 Dec 2014
• 1

I'm OK with doing some of the leg work myself in terms of taking down the walls etc in an effort to save on labour costs and will be using a SE to calculate for the steels.

I know this is a bit of a long shot but does anyone know how much something like this would cost roughly?

 

[whoschuffed]

Anyone any ideas?

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Way too many variables to price accurately from a distance but it doesn't look like a monster job. Be wary of insulation requirements- you'll potentially lose 100mm all round in the kitchen getting to current requirements

From a design point of view, do you really want all your cooking smells etc wafting into your sitting room (I'm assuming that hatching means there's an opening between dining and sitting room)?

I'd be surprised if you needed a lintel between the outhouse and the kitchen- what would it be supporting?- but you'd be best leaving a stub of the wall (if it is full brick) as a buttress for that outside wall.

And why go to an SE for a simple job like that- put a building notice in and ask your BCO what he wants to see up there. Usually (well up here anyway) as long as you use a lintel (ie Catnic or Birtley or similar designed for the job) rather than a random RSJ they'll wave it straight off, no calcs required. And lintels aren't that expensive if you shop around. For putting it in, get someone who knows what they're about (with PL cover in case it goes FUBAR)

 

[whoschuffed]

Hi. Yep I thought I was being a bit optimistic asking for a rough guide on price. Just want to know if its a mega job though really.

I was under the impression that if you're removing a load bearing wall its best to get a SE to calculate for the steel required that will be replacing the wall? I would have thought i'd need to do that for the 2.8m wall that will be coming down or am I mistaken?

I also thought that i'd need some form of steel at the end of the kitchen where the cavity wall is as that is the original back wall of the house? Or am I overthinking this and a lintel will be sufficient for the opening?

At the moment it is open in between the dining room and lounge however we will most likely be putting some form of door in there just so we can close it off if we want.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Ahh, my mistake- is there a second storey above the kitchen? (I assumed the whole thing was a single storey leanto). If there is then yes you'll need a lintel in there.

Stay away from RSJs- lintels are not that expensive and have been designed for the job. Your local building control will tell you what lintel you want putting in- it might get more complex where the 2 lintels overlap but talk to BC first- once you've paid for the building notice its all free advice and it is notifiable work so even if you end up getting SE involved it'll still have to go through building control.

The only potentially complex bit is where the 2 lintels meet. Apart from that it looks straightforward, shouldn't take long and shouldn't cost a fortune. Unlike the skip to get rid of the rubble and the insulation you'll need on the walls.

 

[whoschuffed]

The outbuilding at the end of the kitchen and the slim extension at the end of the dining room are single story, they support a small slate roof. There is an upstairs above the kitchen/dining room/lounge.

Interesting point about the lintels, any reason to go for lintels over RSJs? - i've been reading on various forums and have had it drilled into me that I need an SE to do calcs for steels.

There is another identical house on the same street a bit further down which i've seen the floorplans and interior pictures from when it sold earlier this year and they have done the same thing and opened up the kitchen to the dining room. From looking at their pictures though I can't see any evidence in the ceiling of there being an RSJ/lintel fitted in place of the wall that has come down.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Steel lintels, being fabricated, will generally support more load per kg of lintel than a Rolled Steel Joist. Lintels also come 'off the shelf' with calculations (total load, point load as a minimum) and for straightforward jobs (where you are using the lintel as specified by the manufacturer) that's sufficient for building control. Concrete lintels are cheaper but much heavier (a steel lintel across your 2800 gap is an easy 2 man lift. Concrete equivalent- don't think so).

Problem you might find with a lintel is they're designed to support distributed loads from above. If you want your ceiling to continue at constant height from the dining room through to the kitchen then that might not work so well (depends which way the joists are running in your ceiling).

If the joists are running perpendicular to your proposed lintel (on either side- kitchen or dining) then the lintel has to support them as well as the masonry above, which means the lintel needs to be below the joists (ideally at least a course of bricks below, some lintels have no rating for a point load notwithstanding a very high rating for distributed load). This is where your RSJ and SE could come in- either specifying an RSJ which can take the asymmetric load of the joists bearing on the bottom flange or designing a manufactured beam or beams to do the job.

If you do want that sort of flush ceiling job then it may increase the complexity (and of course the cost) of the scheme. Or it may not- only way to find out is to get someone in to look at it (including having the odd floorboard up to see which way timbers are running & how big they are)

 

[whoschuffed]

Thanks for the above info on the lintels, deffo something for me to think about and probably a better route to go down rather than getting RSJ's in.

I'm not too fussed if it has to be boxed and is visible, it was just confusing me how the house down the road doesn't appear to have anything boxed in in the ceiling where they have removed the wall (it could be hidden at ceiling height but i'm secretly hoping it isn't a load bearing wall and therefore we don't need anything).

Am I better off speaking to my councils building control office first to see what they think? Do they charge for advice or are you only charged when they inspect the work?

 

[oldbutnotdead]

You can probably give them a ring and have a chat for free- try it- but at least 48 hours before you start works you (or your builder) will have to put in a building notice (formal notification that you're doing stuff). Before you call them, sort the details of your walls (half brick, full brick, cavity or solid, which way are the joists running, what is sitting above the walls you want to lose) so they can advise based on reality rather than on what you think or assume is up there.

Don't know if its universal, our council has a price table, for small works there's a minimum fee (£99) and then there are bands depending on the value of the job. Once the notice is in they'll come and have a look at what you plan to do and arrange with you key stages where they'll need to inspect (for yours it'll be when the lintels are in, when the doors/windows are in (which you can DIY by the way- BC will just check that the glass is up to scratch and off you go,no FENSA required if you fit them on a building notice. No FENSA warranty either of course...), when your floor is ready to pour/lay (checking insulation, air gaps etc), when your walls are ready to board (again checking insulation and air gaps and vapour barriers and such)

You've got a fair bit going on (changes to thermal elements, windows, structural stuff)- get some prices (oh yes, this is where we started. You need to find yourself a competent builder- talk to neighbours, mates down the pub/at work, see who's had any work done recently & was it any good) then you'll be able to give BC a reasonable guess at the price band.

And do chat them up on insulation requirements if getting the space up to current standard is going to be difficult/impossible-eg putting 100mm on the external walls will make the room too small to use as a kitchen.

Have fun.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

PS House down the road- maybe joists run parallel. Maybe they did something fancy with joist ends using the RSJ as a trimmer. Maybe there's a big skyhook hidden in the landing.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

PPS Ahh, since you haven't bought the place yet, lifting floorboards will be tricky along with the rest of the stuff. Price guess- £5000 max is all I'd commit to with current level of information. Should be a lot less, depends if you have building type mates or not.

 

[whoschuffed]

Thanks for your advice oldbutnotdead. Lots to think about in terms of taking the walls down and the job as a whole. Hopefully bringing the outbuilding up to current regs wont be too much of a problem.

Once I've got in i'll do some digging about and figure out what is actually in there and see if building control can advise any further. Just checked our councils website and I think its about £230 for them to come out to check alterations to dwellings!!!! Bit steeper than I thought it would be but if that's what it is that's what it is!

I know a few people in the trade (family, mates and mates of mates etc) so i'm hoping that outside of doing as much of the labour work myself it shouldn't get too out hand costwise.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

I know what you mean about £230 being a chunk of change. But you'd do that on 2 sets of calcs from an SE whereas building control are at the end of the phone all through the job if you hit snags/want to do something a bit different/want some advice. Ours up here a v good- conversation goes along the lines of 'here's the building notice, here's what I want to achieve, here's how I plan to do it, any thoughts?'. Loads if useful stuff back incl tolerance for older buildings (new build would need x but you don't have room for it so just do y instead, anything will be better than what is in now).