junction box

[stardanny]

Hi,

I have a question that I need answered. I had a disagreed with a sparky who said if we find a junction box ( the round thing ) in loft, under floorboard etc. it mean a rewire! I can't see why it need a rewire if there a few joint box in loft. I told him, if it work, don't fix it.

What you think?

Dan

 

[oharaf]

Junction boxes are fine as long as they are

(i) Mechanically and electrically sound and selected and erected for the appropriate conditions

(ii) Must be readily accessible for inspection & testing purposes, in other words surface mounted or behind a labelled trap door

 

[regsmyth]

But wouldn't junction boxes in lofts, as long as they are visible and accessible, also be ok?

 

[oharaf]

Yes, re-read OP Reg

 

[jason1958]

Somewhat wryly I suspect this is a NICEIC?

The law is very clear, specifically...
1. BS7671 is not retrospective (MEB presence/sizing is a requirement for supply)
2. BR are not retrospective
3. IEE regs permit Jn Boxes as long as they remain accessible
4. IEE regs permit Crimps which are not accessible

Note the condition for "3" - ACCESSIBLE.

If the location is under floorboards...
- They should not be in a place where furniture is likely to be placed
---- eg, under the landing is ok, anywhere else most likely not
- They should have a hatch fitted if laminate flooring fitted
---- eg, laminate flooring over landing floorboards
- They should be documented for fault finding

You can NOT stick laminate flooring over floorboards with JnBoxes below.
- It turns "accessible" into "inaccessible"
- Get a Bosch PMF180E or Fein Multimaster & "plunge cut" access panels
- Such tools create a 1mm wide cut without effort, then appropriate fastener
- Realise they are deafening on any surface than can reverberate

If the JnBox is damaged.
- You do not have to change all cables or rewire.

If the wiring fails IR EFLI Visual.
- You will need to replace the cable(s) and THEN may choose to wire via Ceiling Rose "JnBox".
- Ceiling Rose "JnBox" is inappropriate if you need to add lighting later because a ceiling rose is not likely to be accessible for additions of cables

If there are JnBoxes present.
- You do not have to rewire IF they are accessible, IR ok, EFLI ok etc
- Tell him to cite 1) BS7671 reg stating JnBoxes are not permitted 2) where BS7671 or BR are retrospective.
- If he says it is "the law", simply throw him out

If in doubt, find someone else.
- Faults are those based on comparison with BS7671 regulations
- Otherwise any could invent whatever to meet remuneration needs


Ceiling Rose Jnbox is preferred by many.
- All cables are accessible from within the room
- Fault finding very much easier & faster - time is money
- Inaccessible to add cables to later

Accessible JnBox loop-in is preferred by some.
- Accessible to add cables to later unlike central ceiling roses
- Fault finding can be simpler
- Permit more complex lighting systems (DIN rain in adaptable box)

Argument specifically by some NICEIC is often that only a ceiling rose is accessible. That is until a client wants to add cables to said ceiling rose, stuck in the centre of a room, under laminate floor, carpet & bed.

Ceiling Rose JnBox are LESS accessible for cabling additions.
Ceiling Rose JnBox are MORE accessible for inspection.

That said I hate JnBoxes in lofts re access & boarded-over.
However in itself no law means that in itself necessitates a rewire.

 

[RF Lighting]

Somewhat wryly I suspect this is a NICEIC?

Why?

Are you another person who beleives wholesaler hear say about the NICEIC imposing different regs for their members, when in reality they ask for installations to comply with BS7671, and nothing else.

 

[plugwash]

There are many places in the regs that are somewhat open to interpretation. Afiact the NICIEC insist on thier members following thier interpretation of those regs.

 

[jason1958]

I said "a NICEIC" - as in a NICEIC spark.
On walking through the door, a spark stating "if we find any Jn Boxes in the loft / under floorboards it means a rewire" is deception.
That may be by ignorance, whatever, BS7671 does not necessitate it.

I only posted because I have heard this phrase many times.
Individual, Firm, Council NICEIC & a BCO on walking thro the door.
Firms will try it on because of commission to meet rewire targets.

I recall a NICEIC advisory re jnboxes was not well written.
Net result is more obsfuscation from yet more documentation


I operate commercially on the buy-side.
Thus I am more suspicious and pounce - especially when "any jn-box" & "means rewire" occurs in the same sentence.

Understand I am not bashing, just grabbing the handbrake.


Buy-Side.
For any work, ask for the regulation - or write a blank cheque.
The regulation is the handbrake, it (usually) shortens many arguments.

I should add, where a quote is from BG, get another one (quote).