What constitutes accessable for a junction box

[jabuzzard]

Been redecorating my front bedroom, and at the weekend I "found" the junction box that ties in all the downstairs lights. A bit odd, as all the wiring is brought back to a single junction box.

However my problem is two fold. Firstly the earth wires are connected together outside the junction box using some terminal block. So in this respect it is clearly not complaint with the regulations and need some attention. I guess this was done because the box is too small to contain everything inside it. Inside it is all connected with more terminal block. For good measure it is just floating in free space.

However my second problem is that it is under a floorboard, so is potentially not "accessible" depending on what the definition of accessible is. I could do the same as I did in the loft by putting a larger box in, and terminating everything inside the box, but being under a floor board under a carpet could be construed as being inaccessible. That said you will always be able to lift the carpet and unscrew the floor board to gain access.

I would use the maintenance free junction boxes, but as there are several lots of cable to be connected, and only a single incoming mains I would need to string a whole bunch together as the biggest only does four terminals.

What is the "right" way forward?

As a side note I removed some of the original rubber wiring that had been left in when the house was rewired. Quite interesting to see how they did it back then. All the wires where twisted together with porcelain caps screwed over them. with cable grips to a junction box being lead grommets that where squeezed tight.

 

[rebuke]

Under floorboards under a carpetted floor is not accessible, unless you have an access hatch that means you don't have to remove the carpet etc...

Can you get any of the cabling to one of the light fittings, as if so you could potentially use some sort of a junction box with cable clamps, and then for inspection/testing it could be retrieved through the hole in the ceiling above the fitting?

 

[jabuzzard]

I can sort of follow that argument, but on what basis is it not accessible? Surely not accessible would be to put it behind a stud partition wall, and then plaster and paint over it for example?

Getting the cable to the light fittings would basically involve a rewire, at which point conversion to a standard loop in would seem to be a more sensible option. Might be the more sensible option anyway.

Is there any official guidance on what is and is not accessible, as it seems something of a gray area.

 

[rebuke]

I don't believe the regs define it, they just say accessible (I might be wrong though).

It's not accessible because a) how does anybody know it's there (you didn't until you discovered it for example), and b) if you're doing a PIR, people might not take kindly to being told they have to have their furniture moved, and nicely fitted carpets pulled back etc etc, and even worse - in the future someone might replace the carpet with laminate floor, which you're highly unlikely to be able to take up and put back without breaking any of it...

 

[electronicsuk]

I don't believe the regs define it, they just say accessible (I might be wrong though).

It's not accessible because a) how does anybody know it's there (you didn't until you discovered it for example), and b) if you're doing a PIR, people might not take kindly to being told they have to have their furniture moved, and nicely fitted carpets pulled back etc etc, and even worse - in the future someone might replace the carpet with laminate floor, which you're highly unlikely to be able to take up and put back without breaking any of it...

Agreed, but I can't see how your proposed solution of tucking it up behind a light fitting is much better in that respect. It's still not immediately obvious the J.B. is there, and it's still necessary to remove a permanent fitting in order to gain access. Slightly better than under carpet, but as part 2 does not define 'accessible', it's still very up in the air.

 

[rebuke]

True, it doesn't help with knowing it's there, but at least it can be accessed by just removing a fitting, not having to lift a floor...

 

[jabuzzard]

It's not accessible because a) how does anybody know it's there (you didn't until you discovered it for example)

Because when I have finished doing up the place there will be a wiring diagram attached to the consumer unit

Also any currently "accessible" junction box could be made inaccessible in the future, so as long as I don't laminate my bedroom floor I am fine. It would then be the responsibility of the person making it inaccessible that would need to change the wiring to bring it up to standard.

I suspect the best option will be to convert it to a standard loop in setup. I shall have a look tonight and see how easy that will be. The landing lights might be tricky, but if I can get the rest to loop in it would reduce the number of maintenance free junction boxes down to one.

 

[chapeau]

screw it all up, solder the connectors, cover it up.

 

[securespark]

Does that comply?

 

[Steve]

Cut a hole in the ceiling below, fit a plastic drywall box and make the joints in there. Face it with a blank plate.

Could disguise it with a smoke alarm while you're at it

 

[jabuzzard]

Cut a hole in the ceiling below, fit a plastic drywall box and make the joints in there. Face it with a blank plate.

Could disguise it with a smoke alarm while you're at it

I think not... What a horrible bodge.

I have had a look at it tonight and it will be going to a more normal l loop in system, in stages as I decorate each room. There will be some junction boxes under the floor in the meantime as I move around the upstairs rooms doing the decorating/renovation. I am aided much by the fact that all the cable to the light switches are in metal conduit in the wall. Makes replacing it much easier.

I am going to be fitting a proper mains powered, battery backed smoke detector though. Mostly because I read a rather horrifying statistic that in the USA where wired in smoke detectors have been mandatory for much longer and most homes have them, around 50% of all deaths in fires in the home occur in the 8% of homes that don't have wired in smoke detectors!!!

 

[CortinaV8]

Couple of points to bear in mind with regards to the American stats.

1. Construction materials of houses
2. General standard of the wiring over there


As for what defines accessible, I dont see why a junction box under the floor isnt accessible. I could see how a junction box inside of a partition wall would be inaccessable as you would need to destroy the wall in order to find it.

 

[stem]

The vast majority of UK homes will have junction boxes under the floorboards, even some built fairly recently.

As with most things these days, working practices directives & regulations seem to change almost daily but it does not always mean previous installations are dangerous. Such changes are not retrospective.

You would not be required to relocate existing concealed junction boxes anymore than you would be required to rip out your old red/black cables and replace them with brown/blue cables, or brick up some of your windows because your house has too much glass for current regulations.

Connecting the earth wires outside of the junction boxes was also an accepted practice at one time and is common, I can't see that it poses any danger if they're out of harms way.

Having junction boxes accessible does not make the actual connections better, just easier for inspection & fault finding.

Of course, if a junction box is damaged, badly installed or in an unsuitable location that's a different matter.

 

[ericmark]

As rightly said there is nothing in regulations to say what is inaccessible but clearly no nails.
You can get junction boxes with DIN rail in them and the push in wiring connections are available for DIN rail mounting common on German equipment.
Although one could give examples of carpet being nailed on top of hatch the same applies to many other things we do where insulation is added later for example.
If one was fitting wires as original wiring one may be able to argue that they will be inaccessible but in your case the very fact that you have found the wires and can work on them rather proves they are accessible.
The whole problem is that screws can come loose with slight vibrations. I have seen junction blocks potted complete with nuts and links and there was no way anything could work loose. But of course neither could they be accessed for adding or removing circuits and I would expect some day some one will want to alter something so although I would not re-wire using a junction box I see very little wrong with leaving an existing one in place.
Sometimes one needs to use some common sense rather than follow blindly the regulations which are not law anyway and are only a guide.
You would not try to get a RCD to protect a 8 volt door bell supply or use some form of armored cables one realises it was not intended to cover SELV circuits but regulations do not say SELV is exempt and same common sense approach needs to be used with other sections too.