We are moving into a new property in the next couple of weeks. We wanted laminate floor for the living room and hallway, but this is not an option as we cannot remove the skirtings or cut the door frames for at least 6 months (new build warranty requirement). Scotia edge beading in my opinion looks awful, so this rules out laminate. We have therefore decided to go for Karndean. The living room and hallway are ground floor and concrete. From what I have read, we need a 2-3mm latex type screed to make the floor perfectly smooth. We will also need an acrylic glue to fix the Karndean. The question is, where can I buy the cheapest screed/glue to do the job?
Karndean flooring. Advice on screed and glue needed please!
- Thread starter gixer1000
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To answer your last question first don't use the cheapest screed and glue use the best and most appropriate. If you don't you will get problems and invalidate any warranty with the Karndean.
If it is a new property you need to check for any moisture in the sub floor first of all, using the correct equipment.
Then you need to use a water based screed - F.Ball 300 is recommended by Karndean(see mattysupra's sticky at the top of the page for guidance).
Then an adhesive from Karndean - a pressure sensitive type is easier to use.
You may also find a wood floor laid with a flat beading trim (such as woodyoulike sells) will give you the finish you are looking for.
Good luck.
If it is a new property you need to check for any moisture in the sub floor first of all, using the correct equipment.
Then you need to use a water based screed - F.Ball 300 is recommended by Karndean(see mattysupra's sticky at the top of the page for guidance).
Then an adhesive from Karndean - a pressure sensitive type is easier to use.
You may also find a wood floor laid with a flat beading trim (such as woodyoulike sells) will give you the finish you are looking for.
Good luck.
Thanks flooringman, you obviously know your stuff! I have done some shopping around and the cheapest place I can find on the net to supply Karndean (Knight Tile) complete with the recommended acrylic glue and levelling screed is completelyflooring.co.uk
They quoted me over the phone £555.58 inc VAT delivered. They said this will cover 30.06 m2 (9 packs). I need, give or take a little, 27 m2, so this should be more than enough. If anyone knows of anywhere that can better this, I would be grateful if you would let me know.
They quoted me over the phone £555.58 inc VAT delivered. They said this will cover 30.06 m2 (9 packs). I need, give or take a little, 27 m2, so this should be more than enough. If anyone knows of anywhere that can better this, I would be grateful if you would let me know.
I have just started laying Karndean following completion of their training course but even in my limited experience I would suggest that you do your homework thoroughly before taking on this job as it is not a DIY job. Basically I was told that I should not consider laying the product without going on a course first. I took this advice and went on the course and I 100% agree with this advice.
It initially seems fairly straight forward but it's fraught with potential issues that could result in your floor looking poor or at worst cause your floor to completely fail. If you do not follow all of the rules then your Karndean guarantee will be invalid. As flooringman has mentioned you need to be 100% sure that your moisture levels are below 75%RH or you will need to start to think about applying DPM's. Also you will need to prime the surface before applying the underlayment (self leveller). These are just a couple of considerations and as per the advice I was given there are too many to list!
However if you do decide to go ahead then have you tried directflooring2u they appear to be competitive and don't forget to get a cleaning kit and the correct trowel to apply the adhesive.
Also take note that you should not put certain materials onto Karndean, i.e. certain rubber mats as they will damage your floor.
Whatever you decide hope everything goes well!
Mark.
It initially seems fairly straight forward but it's fraught with potential issues that could result in your floor looking poor or at worst cause your floor to completely fail. If you do not follow all of the rules then your Karndean guarantee will be invalid. As flooringman has mentioned you need to be 100% sure that your moisture levels are below 75%RH or you will need to start to think about applying DPM's. Also you will need to prime the surface before applying the underlayment (self leveller). These are just a couple of considerations and as per the advice I was given there are too many to list!
However if you do decide to go ahead then have you tried directflooring2u they appear to be competitive and don't forget to get a cleaning kit and the correct trowel to apply the adhesive.
Also take note that you should not put certain materials onto Karndean, i.e. certain rubber mats as they will damage your floor.
Whatever you decide hope everything goes well!
Mark.
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sparkyp has a good thread going, loads of info. - //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=163911
as flooring man has suggested, have a read through the sticky at the top of the forum, and to add to it... you can use acrylic compound aswell as water based. Acrylic is more stable than water based but harder to use. You need to know what the moister content of the subfloor is tho as flooringman and our new 'pro' sparky has suggested!
Its nice to see there is FINALLY others on this forum that understand moister content in NEW subfloors!
as flooring man has suggested, have a read through the sticky at the top of the forum, and to add to it... you can use acrylic compound aswell as water based. Acrylic is more stable than water based but harder to use. You need to know what the moister content of the subfloor is tho as flooringman and our new 'pro' sparky has suggested!
Its nice to see there is FINALLY others on this forum that understand moister content in NEW subfloors!
I will soon (hopefully) be laying Kardean Knight Tiles in my 24sqm extension, and like the op have found completelyflooring to be the cheapest.
I understand it needs to be screeded and all the necessaries that go with that.
BUT and here's the bone of contention, my friend who is a builder and has lent me all his services for free, has installed many, and i do mean many Karndean floors, without any training. He does use the correct stuff and has never had an issue. As a matter of fact he took me to a house across the road from him where he built an extension and laid Karndean (one of his first), to show me as an example of how good it can look. The plumbing burst in the kitchen (unrelated issue) and the extension was 3" deep in water about a month prior to our visit, yet the Kardnean help firm and didn't fail at all.
I guess my point is; he says that Kardnean rip you off with scare tactics and talk of 'essential training' before laying one of their floors. It's all money money money. He has no training, but plenty of general experience and common sense and has never had a problem. He's even just laid new Kardean, over 6mm ply, which sits over old Kardean which sits over underfloor heating in his own house. I'll wager he has no problems with it.
Sparkypenguin, with the greatest of respect to you and any other fitters, what it so different that it should warrant an expensive training course, which iirc you (or someone else) mentioned in another thread that it doesn't even cover everything and that is 'assumes' some kind of prior floor laying experience?
I'm curious as i inted on laying this myself. I fitted laminate flooring in over 10 rooms. Yes is know its different, but it just shows i'm not too green around the gills. I've also fitted the cheap sticky-backed vinyl strips (like Kardnean, but uber cheap and nasty).
I'lladmit i have no real knowledge or experience in water moisture etc, that info i can glean from my friend, but truthfully, is the training really needed?
Thanks for putting up with the long post, and for any advice offered.
I understand it needs to be screeded and all the necessaries that go with that.
BUT and here's the bone of contention, my friend who is a builder and has lent me all his services for free, has installed many, and i do mean many Karndean floors, without any training. He does use the correct stuff and has never had an issue. As a matter of fact he took me to a house across the road from him where he built an extension and laid Karndean (one of his first), to show me as an example of how good it can look. The plumbing burst in the kitchen (unrelated issue) and the extension was 3" deep in water about a month prior to our visit, yet the Kardnean help firm and didn't fail at all.
I guess my point is; he says that Kardnean rip you off with scare tactics and talk of 'essential training' before laying one of their floors. It's all money money money. He has no training, but plenty of general experience and common sense and has never had a problem. He's even just laid new Kardean, over 6mm ply, which sits over old Kardean which sits over underfloor heating in his own house. I'll wager he has no problems with it.
Sparkypenguin, with the greatest of respect to you and any other fitters, what it so different that it should warrant an expensive training course, which iirc you (or someone else) mentioned in another thread that it doesn't even cover everything and that is 'assumes' some kind of prior floor laying experience?
I'm curious as i inted on laying this myself. I fitted laminate flooring in over 10 rooms. Yes is know its different, but it just shows i'm not too green around the gills. I've also fitted the cheap sticky-backed vinyl strips (like Kardnean, but uber cheap and nasty).
I'lladmit i have no real knowledge or experience in water moisture etc, that info i can glean from my friend, but truthfully, is the training really needed?
Thanks for putting up with the long post, and for any advice offered.
well if you can lay floors the same as karndean and laminate it seems you dont need trainning or your builder friend.
matty, obviously you seem like the resident floor expert here, and judging from your posts you're a seasoned pro, and as such the right man to ask.
Seriously mate do you not think its just a cash cow by Karndean to get more money? They seem to be unbelievably arrogant in their ethos. They won't supply or even open an account for half of our regular suppliers. I work for an interiors design and fit-out company and a flooring company called 'Cheshires' are one of our biggest suppliers. They told me yesterday that Karndean won't supply to them direct. Similar story with other flooring companies i've been to as well.
Was it your good self or another floor fitter that said in a recent post "don't use the Karndean acrylic (or some product) when laying floor, use [this]", which also suggest Karndean probably get a kick-back for using a certain product, yet seasoned fitters like yourself don't recommend it.
I'm not anti-Karndean, obviously, because i do want to fit it. It just seems like you don't 'need' all the quals and 'exact' materials that they demand. Sure you may null your warranty, but if you're laying it yourself, how many folks would rely on a warranty anyway?
And when you're on a budget you can ill afford to fork out for absolutely everything that they say to fork out for, and can actually end up resenting the company for doing so too.
Seriously mate do you not think its just a cash cow by Karndean to get more money? They seem to be unbelievably arrogant in their ethos. They won't supply or even open an account for half of our regular suppliers. I work for an interiors design and fit-out company and a flooring company called 'Cheshires' are one of our biggest suppliers. They told me yesterday that Karndean won't supply to them direct. Similar story with other flooring companies i've been to as well.
Was it your good self or another floor fitter that said in a recent post "don't use the Karndean acrylic (or some product) when laying floor, use [this]", which also suggest Karndean probably get a kick-back for using a certain product, yet seasoned fitters like yourself don't recommend it.
I'm not anti-Karndean, obviously, because i do want to fit it. It just seems like you don't 'need' all the quals and 'exact' materials that they demand. Sure you may null your warranty, but if you're laying it yourself, how many folks would rely on a warranty anyway?
And when you're on a budget you can ill afford to fork out for absolutely everything that they say to fork out for, and can actually end up resenting the company for doing so too.
Kjacko,
I found the course good value for money and I personally do not believe that common sense alone will get the job done correctly.
By the sounds of it your builder friend obviously has a good knowledge of many of the potential issues due to his job and from your thread you have admitted that you will be relying on him regarding his knowledge. If you did not have a builder friend who was willing to help then how confident would you be?
As for the number of jobs that your friend has completed without issue I can only pass on the information that I received at the course which is that in many cases you may get away with it, however that's not good enough for me when I will be fitting it as part of my living. I want to know that I will never have to return to a job due to incorrectly fitting. For me it's all about doing it the correct way and doing it once.
Please also note that the guarantees that Karndean give will only be valid if you follow the correct fitting instructions, therefore if your friend has not been following these instructions and has been quoting the guarantee then he, not Karndean, will have to back it up.
Obviously this is your own floor so you have a little more flexibility in your decision making than I did.
Whatever you decide to do I wish you the best of luck.
Mark.
I found the course good value for money and I personally do not believe that common sense alone will get the job done correctly.
By the sounds of it your builder friend obviously has a good knowledge of many of the potential issues due to his job and from your thread you have admitted that you will be relying on him regarding his knowledge. If you did not have a builder friend who was willing to help then how confident would you be?
As for the number of jobs that your friend has completed without issue I can only pass on the information that I received at the course which is that in many cases you may get away with it, however that's not good enough for me when I will be fitting it as part of my living. I want to know that I will never have to return to a job due to incorrectly fitting. For me it's all about doing it the correct way and doing it once.
Please also note that the guarantees that Karndean give will only be valid if you follow the correct fitting instructions, therefore if your friend has not been following these instructions and has been quoting the guarantee then he, not Karndean, will have to back it up.
Obviously this is your own floor so you have a little more flexibility in your decision making than I did.
Whatever you decide to do I wish you the best of luck.
Mark.
Thanks for the advice Mark. My builder does this as part of his job too. I'm certainly not devaluing the skill level or knowledge involved.
I guess i just look at it as another skill to learn but not necessarily having to pay someone a small fortune to learn how to do it.
Like plastering, i've saved myself about a grand by bonding/boarding/skimming various jobs myself. I have no specialised training other than my builder friend (again, lol) and a friend who used to be a plasterer for the council. None of my jobs have had issues afterwards either. Yes i know there is more to it than that, like most skills/trades, but if it was outside my skill level then i'd call in the experts. Otherwise i'll have a go myself...mostly, i enjoy it and it can save a huge amount of wonga!
Can i just ask though; you paid for the course, but you've inundated matty and the like with loads of questions about Karndean installation. I think i remember you saying it didn't cover everything.
Would you put this down to just YOU personally wanting as much info as possible for your 1st job, or do you think that you would actually struggle do your first job without any additional help?
I guess i just look at it as another skill to learn but not necessarily having to pay someone a small fortune to learn how to do it.
Like plastering, i've saved myself about a grand by bonding/boarding/skimming various jobs myself. I have no specialised training other than my builder friend (again, lol) and a friend who used to be a plasterer for the council. None of my jobs have had issues afterwards either. Yes i know there is more to it than that, like most skills/trades, but if it was outside my skill level then i'd call in the experts. Otherwise i'll have a go myself...mostly, i enjoy it and it can save a huge amount of wonga!
Can i just ask though; you paid for the course, but you've inundated matty and the like with loads of questions about Karndean installation. I think i remember you saying it didn't cover everything.
Would you put this down to just YOU personally wanting as much info as possible for your 1st job, or do you think that you would actually struggle do your first job without any additional help?
there is no way you can fit this floor to a high standard without trainning of some kind. Weather that be a karndean course or another course like one of the FITA courses. Of course you could come and work for me or someone else who is skilled at the job for a week and learn more than what you learn on the course.
But i myself still go to all the courses and keep close with karndean, amtico etc for new and improved methods, weather that be me teaching them something or them teaching me. I am lucky that when something new or a new method comes out, that the company in question is normaly on the phone to me for me to try it out and see what i think and vice versa!
Anyway there is more to karndean than to slapping a few tiles down, there is boarder work etc. A proper fitter will be installing boarders on every job and shrinking them to fit or bending them around a bend! This is the bit that i would say no one can do with out trainning of some kind.
The way i look at it tho. Lets say you buy a nice porsche. You take it for its 600 quid oil service at a porsche dealer, The 'porshe mechanic' does the oil change and all seems o.k but then you find out that he is self trainned on his mothers ford fiesta. There is no way he can know all what is needed to know when a few simple courses could train him to do it properly. Would you be happy with this? You may as well pay some tramp at the side of the road 10 quid to slip under the car to do it for you.
Also the courses are worth every penny, you will come away with tools, clothes, bags and products like there glues or screed etc which in total will be about the same as what the course cost, including your lunch and stuff over the few days, karndean dont end up making money after they pay for all the products you use. For instance, the one circle you get to put into the floor costs them 50 quid to make that is scrap 20 minutes later!
But i myself still go to all the courses and keep close with karndean, amtico etc for new and improved methods, weather that be me teaching them something or them teaching me. I am lucky that when something new or a new method comes out, that the company in question is normaly on the phone to me for me to try it out and see what i think and vice versa!
Anyway there is more to karndean than to slapping a few tiles down, there is boarder work etc. A proper fitter will be installing boarders on every job and shrinking them to fit or bending them around a bend! This is the bit that i would say no one can do with out trainning of some kind.
The way i look at it tho. Lets say you buy a nice porsche. You take it for its 600 quid oil service at a porsche dealer, The 'porshe mechanic' does the oil change and all seems o.k but then you find out that he is self trainned on his mothers ford fiesta. There is no way he can know all what is needed to know when a few simple courses could train him to do it properly. Would you be happy with this? You may as well pay some tramp at the side of the road 10 quid to slip under the car to do it for you.
Also the courses are worth every penny, you will come away with tools, clothes, bags and products like there glues or screed etc which in total will be about the same as what the course cost, including your lunch and stuff over the few days, karndean dont end up making money after they pay for all the products you use. For instance, the one circle you get to put into the floor costs them 50 quid to make that is scrap 20 minutes later!
Thanks matty.
To be honest if i had the money i'd have done week (or however long)courses in plastering, floor fitting and anythig else that i thought i'd like to tackle on a home project (with potential for also making money out of it), but obviously money is a factor.....and time off work.
You sound like you really enjoy your job mate, and your knowledge is obviously well respected in your trade.
No doubt i'll be needling you guys for advice if and when i decide to look to Karndean to cover my floor with. Still got a ways to go before then though
To be honest if i had the money i'd have done week (or however long)courses in plastering, floor fitting and anythig else that i thought i'd like to tackle on a home project (with potential for also making money out of it), but obviously money is a factor.....and time off work.
You sound like you really enjoy your job mate, and your knowledge is obviously well respected in your trade.
No doubt i'll be needling you guys for advice if and when i decide to look to Karndean to cover my floor with. Still got a ways to go before then though
sparky penguin might just be answering your questions by then!
Lets hope so!
Kjacko,
It's probably just me. I'm the sort of person who ideally wants to learn before I make mistakes and not from them. Also the fact that I have worked in purchasing in the food industry and sat behind a desk for the last 15 or so years does not really give me any base knowledge. As I said before the course was very good and to be honest had I not taken the course then I would not have known what aspects were relevant and therefore which questions to ask. I would suggest that no 3 day course, no matter how good, could teach somebody everything there is to know about every possible floor laying situation. After having my eyes opened to all of the various considerations and scenario's I would suggest that even a 3 month course would struggle to cover everything. And like most things actual real life experience is key. However I am sure that many people some straight off the course and start to lay floors without any additional help.
Finally just to back up Mattysupra's comments that I thought that the course was well worth the money and you definitely get a lot of tools etc. However as I will be doing this as a business I don't want too many people learning! (LOL)
Good luck!
Mark
It's probably just me. I'm the sort of person who ideally wants to learn before I make mistakes and not from them. Also the fact that I have worked in purchasing in the food industry and sat behind a desk for the last 15 or so years does not really give me any base knowledge. As I said before the course was very good and to be honest had I not taken the course then I would not have known what aspects were relevant and therefore which questions to ask. I would suggest that no 3 day course, no matter how good, could teach somebody everything there is to know about every possible floor laying situation. After having my eyes opened to all of the various considerations and scenario's I would suggest that even a 3 month course would struggle to cover everything. And like most things actual real life experience is key. However I am sure that many people some straight off the course and start to lay floors without any additional help.
Finally just to back up Mattysupra's comments that I thought that the course was well worth the money and you definitely get a lot of tools etc. However as I will be doing this as a business I don't want too many people learning! (LOL)
Good luck!
Thanks for the vote of confidence Matty but I think I need to at least get my second job completed before I get too carried away - LOL!
Mark
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