kitchen and utility on 2.5 ring

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After opinions and advice please.

Kitchen to have:
6 double sockets
single for dishwasher
FCU for extractor
FCU for hob ignition

Utility to have:
2 double sockets
single washer
single tumble dryer

Either way I do it the first double socket would be approx. 7m from CU

All on 1 ring or kitchen ring and utility radial?

Thank you in advace
 
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Or - kitchen radial and utility radial.

It doesn't really matter. It more depends on the actual route of the cable(s).

What would you do if washer and drier were in the kitchen?
 
was thinking a 4mm ring if all on same - bit overkill maybe
 
You don't need a ring with 4mm².

A 4mm²/32A radial is fine as long as clipped to wall or buried in masonry - not through any thermal insulation.
 
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Appendix 15 says
The load current in any part of the circuit should be unlikely to exceed for long periods the current-carrying capacity of the cable (Regulation 433.1.5 refers). This can generally be achieved by:
(i) locating socket-outlets to provide reasonable sharing of the load around the ring
(ii) not supplying immersion heaters, comprehensive electric space heating or loads of a similar profile from the ring circuit
(iii) connecting cookers, ovens and hobs with a rated power exceeding 2 kW on their own dedicated radial circuit
(iv) taking account of the total floor area being served. (Historically, limit of 100 m² has been adopted.)
If we followed that advice we would have dedicated circuits for washing machine, tumble drier, dish washer, oven, and immersion heaters, in real life we tend only to put the immersion heater on a dedicated circuit, what is the main consideration is if there is an overload, will the protection device trip before the cable is damaged? When we plan a ring final we assume 20 amp centre load, and 12 amp even distributed, this will allow 106 meters of 2.5 mm² cable to be used, and be within volt drop, and unlikely to exceed the 1.36Ω limit to ensure the magnetic part of the trip will operate on a short circuit.

In the main electricians have done it so many times, they instinctively know when they as sailing close to the wind, so only bother working it out, when they know it will be a close thing. The calculations are not easy. The formula uses square roots etc, so I use a java script calculator also means less likely to make an error.

But for the DIY man the main hurdle is cost of the instruments, cheap (£50) plug in testers start at 1.9Ω but your looking with a ring final for 1.36Ω so you need an expensive loop impedance tester likely £200 for cheapest, you also need a RCD tester, can't really read 40 mS with a stop watch, and a insulation tester, so looking at around £600 worth of test gear, however if the DIY guy uses fused spurs then the £50 plug in tested will find most faults.

The installation certificate can have three signatures, one for design, one for installation, and one for inspection and testing, but in the main scheme providers don't use those forms, they only have one signature. However you are asking for some one who has never seen the site, to do the design for you.

All we can say is keep high loads near centre of the ring final, my house the kitchen is a good distance from the consumer unit, so all will be around the centre, so no problem, if the CU was in the kitchen, then more consideration is required.

Radials sound good, but volt drop limits a 20 amp radial to around 30 meters, where a 32 amp ring final can do 106 meters, so it needs three radials to replace one ring final, when we used MCB's and a common RCD it was not so bad, but with RCBO's the cost goes up as we increase the number of circuits, the ring final was introduced near end of second world war to reduce the amount of copper needed for the rebuild, little has changed, rings are still cheaper to install than radials both in cost and materials, I still remember my grand dads house with a fuse box with a row of rewire able fuses, one for each socket, and lamp circuit. And my dads house with 13A sockets instead of the 5 and 15 amp, had just 3 fuses, lights (5 amp) sockets (30 amp) immersion heater (15 amp) so much more compact, solid fuel cooker.

This house 14 RCBO's, 3 ring finals, 2 cookers, 2 showers, etc. Using radials I would double that.
 
I would shy away from putting everything on utility on one radial, if it were a 20A radial, if the tumble dryer is on and the washer is heading water, there is probably not much headroom left and I perfer to avoid 32A/4mm radials a lot of the time, you have to be very careful with the instalaltion method to keep it compliant.

Personnally I'd go for a 2.5mm 32A ring for the majority of the loads, and a sepaarte 2.5 16A radial for the tumble dryer (this being a load that draws FLC for long periods), but you'd be find to omit the radial and just have a ring for the lot if you want
 
Appendix 15 says
If we followed that advice we would have , etc.

Thank you Eric for such an informed reply and making great points about DIY and the need for professional work without being condescending like a lot at the Screwfix forums can be lol.


Thanks Adam & EFL also for sound advice.

I'll go away and ponder some calcs
 
I would shy away from putting everything on utility on one radial, if it were a 20A radial, if the tumble dryer is on and the washer is heading water, there is probably not much headroom left and I prefer to avoid 32A/4mm radials a lot of the time, you have to be very careful with the installation method to keep it compliant.
You are spot on, I have seen a 32 amp 4 mm² radial with a section of 2.5 mm² in the middle where an electrician has thought it was a ring final, had to be an electrician as industrial premises with an electrician always on site, so it was an electrician who made the error.

Tumble dryer was not as much of a problem as a washer/dryer, as at least my tumble dryer can be set to 1 kW instead of 2 kW where the washer/drier no option to adjust power used. And 2.8 kW for two hours is a lot of power, over a long time, so any other items on the same circuit can easy take it over 20 amp, but unlikely to take it over 32 amp.

Many installations I looked at not really a ring final, but two 2.5 mm² in parallel mainly as could not get two 6 mm² into the terminals of the grid switch, but could get two 2.5 mm² to fit.

The need for the grid switch is not as much now, washers tend to have automatic switch off if out of balance, and fridges and freezers can be defrosted without unplugging. However where the appliance stops one reaching the socket, still think a good idea to have a easy accessible isolator.

I some times wonder at kitchen design, mothers had an isolator for the hob and oven that you needed to reach across the hob to reach, but there was a kitchen consumer unit next to the back door, so simply no need for the isolator to start with.

It seems no common sense, stupid errors, like fit solar panels (water) and leave the isolator switch in kitchen marked immersion heater, which since did not want to waste energy father-in-law switched off, so no solar water heating.

Ship was lost for a halfpenny of tar!
 

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