Kitchen fitting issues

[sarah long]

Hi,

We have just had a kitchen fitted and are not happy with the finish. One of our corner units does not sit square to the wall and therefore the larder next to it doesn't either (larder is approx 10mm away from the wall on one side).

Two worktops do not sit parallel to the wall - one has a gap from 0 to 15mm over 2.5m, the other 1-2mm - 10mm over about 900mm.

One of the worktop joints is not at 90 degrees its about 2mm off of square between the front/back to the worktop. This is resulting in the worktop moving away from the wall (by our calculations by about 6mm at the far end where the gap is currently 15mm). The overhang at the front of these cabinets is also not the same all the way along - being 49mm one side and 56mm the other.

The kitchen fitter is telling me is due to the walls not being square and we need to build up the plaster / tile to over the gap. He is saying they have done nothing wrong and it couldn't be fitted any better. He is also denying that the corner is not at 90 degrees even though the set square proves it is not at 90 degrees. To this he said i couldn't expect him to be more accurate than within 1-2mm of square.

We have discussed these issues with him but he doesn't seem to agreed that the fitting is at fault, but is just blaming the walls. We have tried to explain that if the cut along the worktop join was square or 1-2mm in the other direction most of these issues would be resolved. He has stated his cut is square (even though it is not) and that you 'wouldn't' ever cut to slightly off 90!

Is this actually an acceptable standard? am i being unreasonable to say this is not up to scratch?

Also how easy is it to correct these issues? how easy will it be to get the worktops apart? He tells me he glued them, which is also a concern as i didn't think you should use glue on wooden worktops.

 

[Notch7]

I cant make much sense of the pics -the close ups dont help.

Worktops -the joints should be cut to suit the room, not st 90 deg. Yours need to be re skimmed to pull close to wall. Its hard to get tight, plastered walls arent very straight. It shouldnt be glued, sealed with silicone or similar. Itll cone apart anyway.

The units should all be fitted in place first and the worktop cut to suit.

Why do you have such a massive overhang? 20mm or 25mm is typical. Was the worktop too wide? Or do the units need pulling out?

 

[sarah long]

They fitted the units, then when they placed the worktop on top of the units the differece in the overhang was even greater. So they moved the cabinets to try and equalise the overhang. But as a result the L shaped corner and larder isn't square to the wall.

The overhang is because we have howdens units and worktops from worktop express that are 620mm. Some of the cabinets needed to have the service void reduced by about 20mm so have a much larger overhang in one section of the kitchen. They said it was too difficult to reduce the width of the worktop to match the overhang for the rest of the kitchen.

 

[Notch7]

They said it was too difficult to reduce the width of the worktop to match the overhang for the rest of the kitchen.

In general, it is standard to rip down worktops to suit the base units, I cant imagine how it could be too difficult to do that. I think if it me, I would want it corrected. I guess that would mean the worktop is now too short, unless its cut down from the front creating a step at the corner.

If you are tiling, a gap of about 5mm or so is acceptable to the rear. Its good not to bury the worktop under the tiles.

 

[Diver Fred]

I also do not follow what you are showing in some of of the pictures particularly the thrid one. To be honest a plan of the kitchen area would help us to advise you.

Are you intending to tile or use Splashbach and upstands?

 

[sarah long]

Hi, here is a copy of the kitchen plan.

We were planning on tiling along the hob run and window area, but didn't intend to tile around the other walls. However these are where we have 10 - 15mm gaps.

 

[foxhole]

Don't understand why hob area needs to be narrower, would normally make fitting a hob more difficult.

 

[sarah long]

Hi,

The hob run hasn't been made narrower. It's the cabinets running along the back wall that have had the service void reduced to fit the hob run length. I have tried to write on the plan where the issues are to help with understanding the problem.

Really we need to know if this is considered acceptable? Our fitters are denying they have done anything wrong and refusing to rectify.

Thanks
Sarah

 

[sarah long]

Also they haven't oiled or sealed any of the cuts they made as far as I know. Is this going to damage the worktops in the long run?

 

[Notch7]

Really we need to know if this is considered acceptable? Our fitters are denying they have done anything wrong and refusing to rectify.

Its wrong.

They have cut the joint, put the worktop on, tightened up the worktop bolts, and thought, 'damn, the worktops now springing away from the wall'.

What they shouldve done is re trim the joint ( router or maybe festool track saw), then refit.

And they should have cut the back of the worktop down, not leave a massive overhang at the front. With a track saw or skil saw with guide or fence its 10 mins work.

The worktops should have at least 1 coat of oil on underside and all cut edges sealed back, ends, joints, cutouts) with some form of suitable sealer -thinned varnish or similar.

I personally wouldve run a router around the front edge to form a small chamfer.

What sort of kitchen fitters are they? -ones you found? General chippies or specialist fitters?

 

[Doggit]

Few kitchens are square, so you learn how to juggle the issues and I don't think they've handled it in the best manner.

The units go in first, and that should warn you how much the kitchens out, and then you juggle the worktops accordingly. The problem you've got, is that the corner unit goes round both corners, so can't be adjusted, so that's forced the issue. Now there's too much overhang at the front, and they should have cut the rear of the worktops to fit the walls, so this is where they've gone wrong. Unfortunately, as the worktops have been cut, you would very likely need to replace the shortest one (nearest the dining area) and then juggle everything round.

You're best option here, would be to fit wooden upstands to cover the gap, and then tile above them

They have cut the joint, put the worktop on, tightened up the worktop bolts, and thought, 'damn, the worktops now springing away from the wall

You could well be right Notch; what you normally do when fitting worktops, is to fit the longest one, then lay the next one underneath it, and mark a line on the masking tape that you fitted. This then gives you the right angle, but because they are square edge worktops, I suspect they've just cut them at 90 degrees, and then found out they don't fit.

I personally wouldve run a router around the front edge to form a small chamfer.

I know, very tempting to do that, but then you have to make the joints the normal hockey stick type.

 

[Notch7]

I know, very tempting to do that, but then you have to make the joints the normal hockey stick type.

To avoid the need for a masons mitre, the front edges are marked. run the router along the front edge stopping short at the joint. Fit the worktops, then run the router around the internal corner to complete the chamfer. If you are really keen, file or chisel the chamfer so the internal corner is mitred not radiused.

Yes the fitters havent marked out the 2nd worktop correctly for the cut.

They shouldve cut the long one, using a shorter piece as a measure to cut the ends of the long one as it goes between walls.

Also the long one should have been ripped down to correct length.

The long one is then placed in position.

Cut the left hand one overlength. Trim its LHS to fit.

Use square to mark up wall position of long top. Place shorter one on top, with offcut to level.

Mark position of cut, cut to size, machine out dog bolts, slap on some sealer, put in place, tighten up bolts Customer happy

Its pointless trying to make any of the worktop joints square, they just need to be cut to suit the room. Any fitter that doesnt know that, is not a kitchen fitter.

They got the cut wrong and couldnt be arrised to re trim.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

They said it was too difficult to reduce the width of the worktop to match the overhang for the rest of the kitchen.

Utter tosh! Any joiner should by rights have a couple of trestles, a circular (rip) saw and a hand plane in his kit to handle just such an event. Ditto proper kitchen fitters. Unless they were on a really low price I'd regard that as just plain lazy.

Really we need to know if this is considered acceptable? Our fitters are denying they have done anything wrong and refusing to rectify.

As a long tome joiner, I'd have to say no. Even if the walls are all over the place you install the cabinets so that the fronts are in a dead straight line - this can be checked with a laser line, string line and traveller or even a 6ft level on shorter runs (all bits of kit they should have). If the gapping to the backs was so bad they should have contacted you and given you the options of getting a plasterer in to reboard/replaster, building-out themselves (at extra cost) or (if feasible) scribing the back edge themselves. You should be looking for a gap of no more than 5mm between the back of the worktop and the wall because wide gaps just look so unprofessional. Dealing with out of square corners (quite common in buildings) is lso the fitter's problem. And as I stated earlier the worktops should have been ripped to width and exhibit a consistent front overhang regardless. All the joints, cut-outs, hidden edges and the undersides should all have had 2 to 3 coats of oil before anything was clamped up.

So there are now three of us who've said it's wrong and that their competence (and honesty) seems to be questionable

 

[Doggit]

Nicely put Job. And Sarah, have a look under the worktop where it's been screwed down; how have they done the fixings. I think the wood is oak, so it'll rust ordinary screws, and they need to use stainless stell ones. As Job queried, how many coats of oil did they put on before fitting it, as you can get away with 2 coats of Osmo top oil, but you need at least 3 coats of Danish or Teak oil to stop any moisture getting in, and that takes time. If any surfaces haven't been coated, then this can cause the wood to swell more that it should.

You have worktops on 3 sides of the kitchen, so they need to be able to expand and contract with the weather and the temperature. You'd therefore need at least a 5mm gap around the back of the whole kitchen, and if you tile onto the worktop, you'll get issues, so wooden upstands are the best way to handle this.

 

[sarah long]

Thank you all for your replies. It is very reassuring to know that we are not being unreasonable. I found them on mybuilder.com and they claim to have 10 years kitchen fitting experience....

The worktops are solid walnut. We made sure all the worktops were oiled with 3 coats of danish oil before they were cut. But they haven oiled any of their cuts/cut outs or joints. They first worktop they cut with a handsaw! which alarmed me somewhat. Probably should have told them to stop doing any work at that point.

They had already cut the worktops ( and fit the hob into the worktop) when they said 'oh, by the way you will have 15mm gap at this end'. When questioned they just said its because of the walls... infuriating.

I will check the screws underneath. By the sounds of it we probably need to try and take the worktops apart and seal all the ends and re fit, otherwise they could be damaged long term. I have checked with Citizens advice bureau and we have the right to ask to up to 100% discount on their fee plus damaged if its costs more to rectify. So if we need to buy new worktops they are liable.

I have since realised that the hob and sink are not even fitted squarely. They also cut one worktop too long and they cut a hole in the stud wall to get it in instead of cutting the worktop down.