Lack of Minor Works Certificate with DIY'ers?

[eveares]

Something has just dawned on me; If I am correct, BS7671:2008 requires all electrical work to be designed, installed, inspected and tested in line with the wiring regulations.

As far as I am aware, apart from the most simple maintenance jobs like replacing a light switch or a socket for like for like, electrical work needs a Minor works certificate to be filled out and completed after the work has finished in order to comply with BS7671.

That in turn means that when DIY'ers do electrical jobs like install an extra socket or install a new outside light, they would need to fill out a MWC and do all the required testing.

Now as the testing includes things like; system earth loop impedance testing, IR testing, R1+R2 impedance testing, etc... what I assume most DIY'ers won't have the tools or the knowledge to carry out; that in turn means the work they do won't comply with BS7671 right?

I bet most DIY'ers and even staff in DIY stores are not even aware of this.

Now while I am sure a lot of the DIY electrical work carried out by competent people is mostly safe, albeit untested; it does make you wonder what sort of issues go undetected due to lack of testing and adherence with BS7671 on DIY work.

Side note: If any on this thread are interested in seeing a tour of my shed/workshop; then see here: //www.diynot.com/diy/threads/my-shed-workshop.437246/#post-3409964

Regards: Elliott

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Something has just dawned on me; If I am correct, BS7671:2008 requires all electrical work to be designed, installed, inspected and tested in line with the wiring regulations.

Yes - it would be a bit oxymoronic otherwise.

I bet most DIY'ers and even staff in DIY stores are not even aware of this.

You'd win that bet. But your point is?

Now while I am sure a lot of the DIY electrical work carried out by competent people is mostly safe, albeit untested; it does make you wonder what sort of issues go undetected due to lack of testing and adherence with BS7671 on DIY work.

Quite a few.

Side note: If any on this thread are interested in seeing a tour of my shed/workshop; then see here: //www.diynot.com/diy/threads/my-shed-workshop.437246/#post-3409964

Do I want to spend half an hour watching a video about someone's shed? Until the last second, this says it all.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

As far as I am aware, apart from the most simple maintenance jobs like replacing a light switch or a socket for like for like, electrical work needs a Minor works certificate to be filled out and completed after the work has finished in order to comply with BS7671.

Minor works cert can be used for changing lights and socket accessories, like for like!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Now while I am sure a lot of the DIY electrical work carried out by competent people is mostly safe, albeit untested; it does make you wonder what sort of issues go undetected due to lack of testing and adherence with BS7671 on DIY work.

I would bet that most DIY electrics, does not comply to BS7671 or Part P.

 

[eveares]

You'd win that bet. But your point is?

Just that a lot of people probably think they are complying with regs when they are not, and that they think they don't need to do any testing. Makes you wonder why DIY stores don't inform people of this?

Do I want to spend half an hour watching a video about someone's shed? Until the last second, this says it all.

Well a half-an-hour video may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I am sure there will be some who will want to watch it. And BAS, I guess you don't like sheds.... (Pun intended)

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Just that a lot of people probably think they are complying with regs when they are not, and that they think they don't need to do any testing. Makes you wonder why DIY stores don't inform people of this?

Because
1) They probably are not aware
2) They do not want to avoid selling electrical items
and
3) The get out, will be the MI that should be with the electrical item, that will state that any electrical work undertaken must comply to by BS7671 and recommendation of using a qualified electrician.

 

[eveares]

Minor works cert can be used for changing lights and socket accessories, like for like!

I know it can, but I was referring to that it is not a requirement.

I would bet that most DIY electrics, does not comply to BS7671 or Part P.

So would I; Like in one of my relatives old house, where he changed a 10A Wylex MCB for a 32A one because his hoover kept casing the loft circuit to trip out, even though it was only a 1.5mm RFC . I advised him not to, but he went ahead and swapped out the B10 MCB for a B32 MCB! (Reg: 433.1.5) Note I had nothing to do with the orgin RFC in 1.5mm whatsoever!

Not to further mention when he changed all his fuses for the Wylex plug in style MCB, he used 10A MCB for the lighting circuits.

 

[skotl]

..As far as I am aware, apart from the most simple maintenance jobs like replacing a light switch or a socket for like for like, electrical work needs a Minor works certificate to be filled out and completed after the work has finished in order to comply with BS7671...

Really? I thought extending a circuit (which could be as "simple" as adding a socket) was exempt?
Doesn't the requirement for a mwc contradict all those who claim that the floodgates have been opened following the relaxation of Part P?

Edit: I believe it's different in Scotland and that a mwc is only required for work carried out under a building warrant. So my question may be more pertinent to England and Wales.

 

[JohnW2]

Something has just dawned on me ...... As far as I am aware, apart from the most simple maintenance jobs like replacing a light switch or a socket for like for like, electrical work needs a Minor works certificate to be filled out and completed after the work has finished in order to comply with BS7671. ... That in turn means that when DIY'ers do electrical jobs like install an extra socket or install a new outside light, they would need to fill out a MWC and do all the required testing. ... Now as the testing includes things like; system earth loop impedance testing, IR testing, R1+R2 impedance testing, etc... what I assume most DIY'ers won't have the tools or the knowledge to carry out; that in turn means the work they do won't comply with BS7671 right?

I don't know why it's only just dawned on you - it is a frequently discussed issue in this forum, and other places. Everything you say is correct.

I bet most DIY'ers and even staff in DIY stores are not even aware of this.

... and you would undoubtedly win that bet. However, if they come to this forum, it would be fairly unusual for them not to be made aware of it More to the point, when people are made aware of it, most will still not do any (or much) of the testing - the 'very occasional DIYer of minor jobs' is simply not going to acquire the knowledge or equipment to do the testing). That means that the great majority of DIY electrical work (other than that undertaken by the very few of us non-electricians who have the knowledge and equipment to do the testing), particularly the more minor, is technically non-compliant with BS7671, and hence very difficult to demonstrate that it is compliant with Part P, hence legal.

Faced with that situation, we essentially have two choices. We either 'accept' this non-ideal situation, and do what we can to help DIYers to work as safely is possible within that situation - OR we refuse to have anything to do with a DIY Electrics forum (except, maybe, to tell people not to do electrical DIY work - we could leave just one person {suggestions on a postcard } to do that!), and start a campaign to make all DIY electrical work illegal.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Astra99]

Isn't it also perfectly acceptable to adhere to other standards such as the German or French systems, as the UK is part of the European Union? (Or will be until Mr. Cameron receives an overwhelming "Get Out Now" vote!)

 

[JohnW2]

Isn't it also perfectly acceptable to adhere to other standards such as the German or French systems, as the UK is part of the European Union? (Or will be until Mr. Cameron receives an overwhelming "Get Out Now" vote!)

One can use whatever means one wishes in an attempt to demonstrate one's compliance with the law (Part P of Building Regs) - that could include complying with regulations of other 'reputable countries' or, in very rare cases, arguing 'from first principles' on the basis of expert knowledege. However, in terms of the specific you mention, I suspect (but do not know) that the regulations of most 'reputable countries' probably have similar testing and documentation requirements to those required by BS7671.

Kind Regards, John

 

[eveares]

I don't know why it's only just dawned on you - it is a frequently discussed issue in this forum, and other places. Everything you say is correct.

Because I only learnt about minor work certificates last week when I was casually browsing the forums. I knew about compliance with BS7671, just not existence of MWC's.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't know why it's only just dawned on you - it is a frequently discussed issue in this forum, and other places. Everything you say is correct.

Because I only learnt about minor work certificates last week when I was casually browsing the forums. I knew about compliance with BS7671, just not existence of MWC's.

It's not really MWCs, per se, which are the issue - compliance with BS7671 requires 'full testing' to be undertaken, and that's the real issue - completing the form is a side issue.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Or will be until Mr. Cameron receives an overwhelming "Get Out Now" vote!

Which I sincerely hope he will not, for the sake of my son and others of his generation.

Hopefully (and the indications are that they will) the voices of reason will prevail over those of the ignorant, stupid, hate-filled f***wits who want to leave.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I knew about compliance with BS7671, just not existence of MWC's.

That's an oxymoron.