non notifyable work & certification - clarification pls

[josh1e]

I've re read building regs relating to diy electrical work, BS7671 & Part P.

I also refer to information contained here http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring-regulations/part-p/index.cfm

Please can someone confirm

non notifyable minor work has no specific requirement for an installation certificate. Within this & the other referenced material, any other work must have either LABC or BS7671 certification. However diy non notifyable minor work is not addressed.

I realise the wording is to some extent open to interpretation, however all scenarios except the above seems very clear. a diyer cannot self certify as he is not qualified to do so. certification would normally fall to LABC but in the case of minor diy non notifyable work, LABC would not be involved....

thanks.

 

[comms]

non notifyable minor work has no specific requirement for an installation certificate.

Correct you would issue a minor works certificate.

any other work must have either LABC or BS7671 certification.

Correct as it would be notifiable work.

However diy non notifyable minor work is not addressed.

No it wouldn't be as it is NON NOTIFIABLE work, so bc's are not concerned with it, hence you as a diyer get away with not testing the work & not completing a minor works certificate (wrong if you ask me but I dont make the rules)

a diyer cannot self certify as he is not qualified to do so. certification would normally fall to LABC but in the case of minor diy non notifyable work, LABC would not be involved....

Correct. And thats why the whole part P thing is a crock of s***.

 

[josh1e]

Hi Comms,

thanks for the reply - clarification.

So if i live in rented accom & want to diy. some sockets & a light fitting in normal (not special) areas, and the work is non notifyable & does not normally require a certificate under BS7671 / Part P.

how would i supply the landlord with a cert that i cannot write & a sparky is not allowed to write as he would be certifying someone elses work?

also can the landlord demand a cert as the regs do not state a diyer needs to provide one (for this type of work) and b/. in the event labc are not involved & they would usually test under the labc initial fee, does that legally pass to the landlords responsibility?

I realise in a nice world i would employ a sparky & this would all resolve itself, but there are clauses to allow diy'ers. So i am trying to ensure i work within those clauses & satisfy any requirements.

thanks

 

[Pengwyn]

Josh1e

"also can the landlord demand a cert as the regs do not state a diyer needs to provide one (for this type of work) and b/. in the event labc are not involved & they would usually test under the labc initial fee, does that legally pass to the landlords responsibility? "

Sorry to take play devil's advocate but the landlord can demand what he wants. It is his/her property after all. Personally I would never allow a tenant to do DIY electrics without a EIC or PIR, even if he get a spark to certify I probably still wouldn't allow it. Whether required by LABC or not it's not your property and your not a spark.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

non notifyable minor work has no specific requirement for an installation certificate. Within this & the other referenced material, any other work must have either LABC or BS7671 certification. However diy non notifyable minor work is not addressed.

It's true that there's no system for enforcement, but don't forget that Part P (in fact all of the Building Regulations) applies to any work whatsoever on fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter which operate at low or extra-low voltage and are—
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling.

So even changing a light switch requires you to make reasonable provision in the design and installation of it in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installation from fire or injury.

And changing a light switch is not an extreme example where in reality it can just be done without a thought - almost daily we see examples here where people cock it up, and in terms of testing with proper instruments and proving that you have done it, i.e. recording the results and certifying that you did it properly, if it's a metal switch then proper cpc continuity can be literally a matter of life & death...

I realise the wording is to some extent open to interpretation, however all scenarios except the above seems very clear. a diyer cannot self certify as he is not qualified to do so. certification would normally fall to LABC but in the case of minor diy non notifyable work, LABC would not be involved....

How in practice you can get people to do even minor works "properly" is a pretty intractable problem, and I offer no solutions, but the accident statistics do not show that there is a significant safety concern which needs to be addressed.

So if i live in rented accom & want to diy. some sockets & a light fitting in normal (not special) areas, and the work is non notifyable & does not normally require a certificate under BS7671 / Part P.

1) It would require a certificate under BS 7671.

2) Part P applies to non-notifiable work.

how would i supply the landlord with a cert that i cannot write & a sparky is not allowed to write as he would be certifying someone elses work?

Not easily, but there are no formal restrictions on you certifying your work compliant with BS 7671.

also can the landlord demand a cert as the regs do not state a diyer needs to provide one (for this type of work) and b/. in the event labc are not involved & they would usually test under the labc initial fee, does that legally pass to the landlords responsibility?

The landlord can do what he likes - it's his property, so he can insist on a NICEIC registered contractor for everything just like he can insist on no pets, no barbecues, no parking cars on the front lawn etc etc etc.

Remember that he may be genuinely bound by the terms & conditions of his insurances, and remember that he does have a legal duty of care to his tenants. In an HMO, or a block of flats etc he cannot allow people to do what they like if in doing it they could put other people's property and persons at risk.

I realise in a nice world i would employ a sparky & this would all resolve itself, but there are clauses to allow diy'ers. So i am trying to ensure i work within those clauses & satisfy any requirements.

Don't confuse the law and regulations with tenancy agreements. There are no laws forbidding people in flats from keeping domestic pets and having barbecues in the communal gardens, for example...

 

[josh1e]

Hi guys,

thanks for the helpful replies...

BAS,

Quote:
how would i supply the landlord with a cert that i cannot write & a sparky is not allowed to write as he would be certifying someone elses work?

Not easily, but there are no formal restrictions on you certifying your work compliant with BS 7671.

[/quote]

i read (but am sorry i can't find it to link it here) that any diy'er can do minor work (with conditions) but only a qualified person can test to BS7671. (2391 i think)

the wording was the key with what i read, as it makes a distinction between someone competent (to do the work) but qualified (to do the test)

I found this confusing as i had read on here & in the regs, that you cannot have someone certify someone elses work (unless they were present @ 1st & 2nd fix)

Your reply bas says that in your opinion a diyer can self cert to BS7671?

thanks for the help

 

[kevindgas]

surely you as a tenant not an owner of said property you are doing work that is NOT diy but is in fact work for gain

as that puts you in an akward position I would steer well clear of even attempting to undertake the work

what if you make a mistake and your landlord takes you to court - no liability insurance, no qualifications the court would throw the book at you.

 

[josh1e]

Hi guys.

Thanks for the replies...

The work IS diy in my own home for me . I need to supply power to a loft amp & network switch. I want to put these in the loft. I also have lots of boxes up there which I have to pull down to sort through. so I thought a light & ladder would be a useful idea at the same time.

The work is NOT for someone else & I am NOT charging myself


so... a diyer trying to work in his own (not a customers) home (rented), with 17yrs experience & trying to do so within any legal clauses & non legal but published regs.

I found that diy work seems to have non defined areas around certification although what guidance / instructions there are, seem to be written from the perspective that it is diy in your own "owned" home. no reference or clause for tenants.

I fully understand the landlord needing to protect themselves.
I fully understand the person doing the work must be competent & work within part p (planning, design, installation etc)
I fully understand that other parts apply (access, fire, environmental etc) & BS7671 must be used for routing of cables, cable protection, cable sizing etc etc.

My confusion is to the certification of the work. I understand it is the only way a landlord can have legal reprocussion if the work is dodgy. I understand it would normally show a qualified sparky had done the work with liability insurance if it caught fire / injured someone.

but. with clauses in the regs for diyer's. While i understand the above, I would still like to do the work ... within what is legal... And if the owners want a cert, then my question is how do i provide this while doing the work myself...

If indeed the regs say i can do the work, then for the other 100,000,000 tenants, what is the process they use to supply certs to landlords when required.

there are alot of very good / appropriate / right opinions as to the landlords legal requirements to protect his tenants / property etc. I understand these.. If i was a landlord i wouldn't want someone f***ing around either...

but then i'm not the landlord i'm a (imo) competent diy'er who only wants to be able to watch tele in bed.

As part p also applies to elv cabling, does that mean that not only the electrical work (spur, sockets & lighting) but the tv aerial cables, network data cables & bt phone extensions should also be certified to BS7671?

sorry to drag this out, but it is prooving interesting & helping me understand the different circumstances around certs & work.

thanks

 

[ban-all-sheds]

i read (but am sorry i can't find it to link it here) that any diy'er can do minor work (with conditions) but only a qualified person can test to BS7671. (2391 i think)

You may have read it here but it isn't true. BS 7671 talks about skilled persons, and the need to have sufficient knowledge and experience etc, but does not define any need for any particular qualifications. The problem areas are deciding if you are justified in signing a declaration to say that what you did complied with BS 7671 and getting other people to accept that your certificate is worth anything.

But there is no prohibition on you testing or issuing certificates.

I found this confusing as i had read on here & in the regs, that you cannot have someone certify someone elses work (unless they were present @ 1st & 2nd fix)

If someone is going to complete the 3rd part of the 3-part EIC then they would have to be able to inspect & test at the relevant stages. Many electricians believe that that means they can't do the I&T on work where the designer/installer is not qualified, in their eyes, to certify their parts, but they are wrong to believe that.

Your reply bas says that in your opinion a diyer can self cert to BS7671?

They may.

Whether they can or not is a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

However diy non notifyable minor work is not addressed.

No it wouldn't be as it is NON NOTIFIABLE work, so bc's are not concerned with it, hence you as a diyer get away with not testing the work & not completing a minor works certificate (wrong if you ask me but I dont make the rules)

It was always that way - never seemed to be a real problem.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I found that diy work seems to have non defined areas around certification although what guidance / instructions there are, seem to be written from the perspective that it is diy in your own "owned" home. no reference or clause for tenants.

That's because it is not the business of the IEE or the civil servants who write the Building Regulations to interfere with agreements between landlords and tenants, and it is not the business of landlords to interfere with the writing of British Standards or parliamentary legislation.

but. with clauses in the regs for diyer's. While i understand the above, I would still like to do the work ... within what is legal... And if the owners want a cert, then my question is how do i provide this while doing the work myself...

That's entirely a matter between you and your landlord - nothing to do with the Wiring Regulations or the Building Regulations.

If indeed the regs say i can do the work, then for the other 100,000,000 tenants, what is the process they use to supply certs to landlords when required.

That's entirely a matter between them and their landlords - nothing to do with the Wiring Regulations or the Building Regulations.

there are alot of very good / appropriate / right opinions as to the landlords legal requirements to protect his tenants / property etc. I understand these.. If i was a landlord i wouldn't want someone f***ing around either...

but then i'm not the landlord i'm a (imo) competent diy'er who only wants to be able to watch tele in bed.

So hopefully you understand the gap between your landlord and you with respect to you doing the work - only the two of you can close that gap.

As part p also applies to elv cabling, does that mean that not only the electrical work (spur, sockets & lighting) but the tv aerial cables, network data cables & bt phone extensions should also be certified to BS7671?

If compliance with BS 7671 is the way that you choose to comply with P1, then yes.

And don't forget that other Building Regs may apply to that cabling too.