Clarification of regs -adding socket to ring. What required?

[JohnW2]

IMO He has 3 choices.
1/ He buys the test equipment that he will require and learns how to use it.
2/ He does the work and pays an electrician to Inspect and Test it for him.
3/ He doesn't do the work - he pays an electrician to do it for him.
There's no in-between - if the work is done it needs testing for safety.....end of.
So, OP, take your pick. This, in my opinion, applies to ANY DIY work.

Quite. If one is going to adopt that 'party line', then you have listed the rocks and hard places to which I referred.

However, if it becomes known that those rocks and hard places are what is offered in response to requests for advice which DIYers pose here (and similar places), many such people will probably decide not to bother asking for advice and ...... !! Whilst I respect your position, IMO one sometimes needs to be pragmatic/realistic.

Do I take it that you feel that no medications of any sort should be available without a doctor's prescription?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Electrifying]

I don't see your problem with those three options, John.

If a person is undertaking electrical work - whether a DIYer or a fully qualified spark - then they should be competent to do that work.......IN FULL.

The 'job' of extending a RFC doesn't end when you screw in the last conductor on your 'added' socket - it ends when the required testing is completed.

They come on here to ask how to extend the ring - but they won't bloody ask what equipment they need to test it and how to do it.....will they??

Half a job, John - that's my problem.

And I don't see how those three choices put the good old DIYer between a rock and a hard place, either.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't see your problem with those three options, John.

I don't have a problem with them, per se - presenting them is indisputably a very 'correct' approach. The problem arises because of the 'fourth option' which you/we do not talk about, but which is very much alive and well in the real world.

They come on here to ask how to extend the ring - but they won't bloody ask what equipment they need to test it and how to do it.....will they??

No - but, as I said, they wouldn't normally need to, since someone will usually pop up and ask them how they're going to test it, often spawning a discussion about testing kit!

And I don't see how those three choices put the good old DIYer between a rock and a hard place, either.

It does if they definitely want to 'DIY' - the rock involves lots of money and learning (which, as we've agreed, incredibly few would accept), whilst the hard place is not to DIY (completely or at all).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Electrifying]

And I don't see how those three choices put the good old DIYer between a rock and a hard place, either.

It does if they definitely want to 'DIY' - the rock involves lots of money and learning (which, as we've agreed, incredibly few would accept), whilst the hard place is not to DIY (completely or at all).

Kind Regards, John.

Well, that's just hard luck, John.

Electrical work requires a degree of understanding and competence.....if they want to do it, they should learn the correct way 'how-to'......and that includes what testing is required for the job that they intend to undertake.

Don't forget - all electrical work on a dwelling is required to comply with Part P of the building regulations - regardless of whether it's notifiable or not - and that will include the correct Inspection and Testing procedure.

And I don't really care for the attitude that 'it goes on in the real world' - that doesn't mean 'professionals' have to encourage it on forums.

I don't object to anyone helping out DIYers who wish to do work themselves.......just tell them the correct procedures, instead of adopting the attitude that "well, everyone just does it, so you might as well, because the correct way might cost you some money!!"

 

[JohnW2]

And I don't really care for the attitude that 'it goes on in the real world' - that doesn't mean 'professionals' have to encourage it on forums.

As I said, that's the pefectly correct attitude for a professional to adopt. You do not seem to have yet responded to my question:

Do I take it that you feel that no medications of any sort should be available without a doctor's prescription?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Paul_C]

I don't object to anyone helping out DIYers who wish to do work themselves.......

But I think I recall you saying a while ago that in your opinion all DIY electrical work should be banned, other than simple switch/socket replacements.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

However, if it becomes known that those rocks and hard places are what is offered in response to requests for advice which DIYers pose here (and similar places), many such people will probably decide not to bother asking for advice and ...... !!

Then that is 100% their mistake, and any problems which ensue are 100% their responsibility.

Nobody elses.

OTOH, if you encourage them, however gently, to do things improperly, then you become at least partly responsible for their actions.

 

[Electrifying]

I don't object to anyone helping out DIYers who wish to do work themselves.......

But I think I recall you saying a while ago that in your opinion all DIY electrical work should be banned, other than simple switch/socket replacements.

Well, until I get my way and it is banned, I'll just have to live with it, won't I.........as soon as it's banned, I'll object to the helping out.

So, like I say, I don't mind ...........if the people doing the helping out offer information regarding the complete way to perform the task - including legal requirements, notification, risk assessment, safe isolation, doing the job itself, Inspection & Testing and certification.........and not the 'half a job' advice that tends to be the norm - i.e. where to connect to on the RFC - followed by all the possible ways to avoid notification and/or testing.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The problem arises because of the 'fourth option' which you/we do not talk about, but which is very much alive and well in the real world.

But that is nobody's problem except the people who don't want to do it properly.

It does if they definitely want to 'DIY' - the rock involves lots of money and learning (which, as we've agreed, incredibly few would accept),

DIY is voluntary.

Doing it properly is not.

whilst the hard place is not to DIY (completely or at all).

Then so be it.

I'm with Electrifying - you do it properly or not at all.

 

[Electrifying]

You do not seem to have yet responded to my question:

Do I take it that you feel that no medications of any sort should be available without a doctor's prescription?

Kind Regards, John.

No, I'm completely the other way - I think I should be able to buy any medication that I like from Asda..............but I wouldn't come on here and ask you which tablets I'm best taking for my chest pains.

And if I did I hope you'ld tell me I'm best going to the doctors or A&E...............because some things are best left to the people who know.

You started this ridiculous comparrison, by the way, so I make no apologies.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm with Electrifying - you do it properly or not at all.

A laudable stance - but doesn't that bring us back to the question of 'why have a DIY electrics forum at all' and, more importantly, why participate in one even if it does exist? ...

...Are we not all agreed that to 'do properly' virtually any electrical work, (including that which is not notifiable), requires testing for which the vast majority (virtually all) DIYers are not equipped - certainly in terms of equipment and, in many cases, the understanding and knowldge which needs to go with it?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

No, I'm completely the other way - I think I should be able to buy any medication that I like from Asda..............but I wouldn't come on here and ask you which tablets I'm best taking for my chest pains.

Interesting - But it's not just about forums. I thought you wanted all DIY electric work to be banned, not just asking questions about it in forums.

If you feel that unqualified people should not be allowed to 'mess with' electrical things they may not understand, because of the safety risks, why do you feel that unqualified people should be allowed to 'mess with' medicines and illnesses, which have far more direct potential risks associated with them?

And if I did I hope you'ld tell me I'm best going to the doctors or A&E...............because some things are best left to the people who know.

Interesting point, but if you look anywhere - from TV through magazines and newspapers to internet forums, you'll find countless examples of healthcare professionals giving 'advice from afar' about illnesses and treatments. They will, indeed, quite often advise people to see a doctor, or even 'go to A&E' (just as 'get an electrician' is a very common response in this forum) but they will very often give actual 'DIY' advice as well.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A laudable stance - but doesn't that bring us back to the question of 'why have a DIY electrics forum at all' and, more importantly, why participate in one even if it does exist? ...

...Are we not all agreed that to 'do properly' virtually any electrical work, (including that which is not notifiable), requires testing for which the vast majority (virtually all) DIYers are not equipped - certainly in terms of equipment and, in many cases, the understanding and knowldge which needs to go with it?

Have you counted how many times I've asked people what they are going to do about testing?

How many times I've asked them if they know what tests to carry out in what sequence and at what point they would energise the installation, and for each test if they know what is being measured, why it is important, how to carry out the test, and with what equipment, and what sort of results they would expect to get if everything was OK?

How many times I've directed them to read this?

How many times when they pop up after the event I've asked what their test results were?

DIYing is optional.

Equipping yourself with the right knowledge and the right tools is not.

 

[JohnW2]

Then that is 100% their mistake, and any problems which ensue are 100% their responsibility. Nobody elses.

Very true.

OTOH, if you encourage them, however gently, to do things improperly, then you become at least partly responsible for their actions.

Also very true. Whenever one gives advice about anything to anyone, one inevitably requires some responsibility for the consequences of that advice. Those who are uncomfortable about that obvioulsy should not offer advice.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

But you seem to think that we are also responsible if they ignore our advice because they don't like it, and that therefore we should not give unwelcome advice.