Clarification of regs -adding socket to ring. What required?

[JohnW2]

Have you counted how many times I've asked people what they are going to do about testing? How many times I've asked them if they know what tests to carry out in what sequence and at what point they would energise the installation, and for each test if they know what is being measured, why it is important, how to carry out the test, and with what equipment, and what sort of results they would expect to get if everything was OK? How many times I've directed them to read this?
How many times when they pop up after the event I've asked what their test results were? DIYing is optional. Equipping yourself with the right knowledge and the right tools is not.

Exactly - and you know as well as I do that virtually none of the people to whom you so often direct such questions/comments ever will do any proper testing. You also know that virtually no electrical work can be done 'properly' without that testing. So, given that the required proper testing would almost never get done, do you see the only role of this forum as effectively being to try to persuade people (very rarely successfully, I suspect) not to undertake DIY work?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No, I see it as trying to persuade people to do it properly.

 

[JohnW2]

But you seem to think that we are also responsible if they ignore our advice because they don't like it, and that therefore we should not give unwelcome advice.

If the nature (and, sometimes more importantly, tone) of the advice is such that the person abandons attempts to get advice, and proceeds to do whatever they are doing without the 'practical' advice they might otherwise have received then, yes, I suppose the person who 'frightened them off' might bear some moral responsibility for any consequences of them not having received that advice.

It's just like the parent who responds to their daughter's request for advice about contraception with "don't have sex" (whilst knowing jolly well that such advice won't be heeded) - who then arguably bears some moral responsibility for the pregnancy which ensues.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

No, I see it as trying to persuade people to do it properly.

Laudable, but totally unrealistic. Do you seriously believe that any significant prportion of the (hundreds or thousands) of people you've tried to 'persude' have gone out and got the testing kit and learned how to use it and what the answers mean?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Stoday]

Nearly all DIY work is simple; all that for which there is no need to notify is. It's completely OTT to suggest that the full range of tests in BS7671 are necessary for these simple works. It's unreasonable to suggest that a DIYer should acquire professional test gear costing £100's for his simple jobs.

IMO all the essential tests for non-notifiable work are within the capability of a cheap multimeter. There's an economic incentive for a DIYer to undertake simple jobs because the mark-up an electrician necessarily charges makes the work outrageously expensive.

Apart from simple work in a kitchen, it is reasonable for a DIYer to have proper test gear if he undertakes notifiable work. It's more reasonable too to advocate his use of an electrician as an alternative to DIY because the jobs are more expensive and hence the mark-up over the DIY cost so much more reasonable.

 

[Electrifying]

Nearly all DIY work is simple; all that for which there is no need to notify is.

So if I extend my downstairs RFC to the upstairs of my house and feed an additional 8 double socket outlets..............not notifiable, by the way.............Yeah, you're right....simple!!

It's completely OTT to suggest that the full range of tests in BS7671 are necessary for these simple works.

Just for you, Stoday:.....

It is not necessary to give prior notification of proposals to carry out the minor electrical installation work described in Table 1 of Approved Document P and that does not include provision of a new circuit.

However, non-notifiable work is required to comply with the technical requirements of Part P, including BS7671 requirements for inspection and testing and the issuing of a minor works certificate.

BS7671 certificates can usually only be issued by the person who carried out the electrical work.
The guidance in Approved Document P, however, does allow DIYers undertaking non-notifiable work to have their work checked by a competent third party.

© The Institute of Engineering and Technology

IMO all the essential tests for non-notifiable work are within the capability of a cheap multimeter.

Really??

Do you know what tests would be required if you were to alter a ring final circuit in the way I described above???

 

[JohnW2]

Nearly all DIY work is simple; all that for which there is no need to notify is. It's completely OTT to suggest that the full range of tests in BS7671 are necessary for these simple works. It's unreasonable to suggest that a DIYer should acquire professional test gear costing £100's for his simple jobs. IMO all the essential tests for non-notifiable work are within the capability of a cheap multimeter.

Certainly unrealistic, and I guess that's close to 'unreasonable'.

I think it's actually the knowledge and understanding which are probably more of an issue than the cost of test kit, which isn't really all that expensive; I could buy a perfectly functional used MFT for what it costs to fill up my car with petrol two or three times.

Of course, arguments such as this will never go away, since those who wish to will always be able to think up extremely improbable scenarios in which 'full testing' would reveal a problem which lesser testing wouldn't pick up. However, the missing part of most of these discussions is a sensible consideration of the probabilities involved.

Another problem, of course, is that there obviously are some very bad/dangerous DIYers out there - and not only in relation to electrical work - and it would be nice to be able to 'weed out and ban' them! However, as with any situation which includes a few 'black sheep', it is very difficult to develop attitudes, or even regulations/laws, which don't tar everyone with the same brush (that of the worst).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If the nature (and, sometimes more importantly, tone) of the advice is such that the person abandons attempts to get advice, and proceeds to do whatever they are doing without the 'practical' advice they might otherwise have received then, yes, I suppose the person who 'frightened them off' might bear some moral responsibility for any consequences of them not having received that advice.

Nonsense.

It's just like the parent who responds to their daughter's request for advice about contraception with "don't have sex" (whilst knowing jolly well that such advice won't be heeded) - who then arguably bears some moral responsibility for the pregnancy which ensues.

Completely AAF analogy.

The response would be to advise her about contraception (i.e. doing it properly), and to make it clear that doing it without contraception (i.e. not properly) is irresponsible and unacceptable.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I think it's actually the knowledge and understanding

Which cost (financially) almost nothing to acquire.

I could buy a perfectly functional used MFT for what it costs to fill up my car with petrol two or three times.

Or not far short of theatre and dinner for two in London (and I'm not talking about Michelin starred restaurants). Or as I observed recently less than a few holiday upgrades.

Looked at from those perspectives, if people aren't prepared to invest that sort of money in being able to do it properly, and make some effort to learn, then their whole attitude is incompatible with doing the work.

 

[Electrifying]

John,

Did you not read my post above - with the quote from the IET??

It would be unrealistic and unreasonable for them to insist that a DIYer buys 100s of pounds worth of test equipment.....you're right.

BUT......They're not telling them that they have to buy the gear, are they?

They're telling them the work has to be tested - what method the DIYers choose to achieve this result is up to them.

 

[JohnW2]

John, Did you not read my post above - with the quote from the IET??

Yes, I did - but, as you can probably deduce from the times of the two postings, not until after I'd finished typing my response to Stoday!

It would be unrealistic and unreasonable for them to insist that a DIYer buys 100s of pounds worth of test equipment.....you're right.
BUT......There not telling them that they have to buy the gear, are they?
They're telling them the work has to be tested - what method the DIYers choose to achieve this result is up to them.

All true, but I think you are may be 'under-reading' what Stoday wrote - namely that, in his opinion:

It's completely OTT to suggest that the full range of tests in BS7671 are necessary for these simple works.

If I understood his meaning (perhaps not!) he was offering his opinion that for anyone (the IET or otherwise) to suggest that such tests are necessary is 'OTT'. In other words, I don't think he was denying that such is what the IET say. You obviously will not agree with that opinion - but, there again, nor would you (presumably) undertake the desirable tests and/or enquiries before taking a medication, if your wish for all medications to be freely available to you came to pass!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Stoday]

Just for you, Stoday:.....

It is not necessary to give prior notification of proposals to carry out the minor electrical installation work described in Table 1 of Approved Document P and that does not include provision of a new circuit.

However, non-notifiable work is required to comply with the technical requirements of Part P, including BS7671 requirements for inspection and testing and the issuing of a minor works certificate.

BS7671 certificates can usually only be issued by the person who carried out the electrical work.
The guidance in Approved Document P, however, does allow DIYers undertaking non-notifiable work to have their work checked by a competent third party.

© The Institute of Engineering and Technology

I've never heard of the "Institute of Engineering and Technology". Is it American?

Anyway, it's wrong when it states that "non-notifiable work is required to comply with the technical requirements of Part P, including BS7671 requirements for inspection and testing and the issuing of a minor works certificate"

Guidance in the Approved Document to part P says a way of meeting the fundamental principles... the installation must be suitably inspected and tested to verify that they meet the relevant equipment and installation standards"

In BS7671 itself, 134.2.1 refers to "appropriate inspection and testing"

It's "suitability" and "appropriate" that are at issue for simple DIY tasks.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't have the equipment to test the circuit

An even better bargain: Metrel-61557

You still haven't bought one, I see.

Seriously - you'll wait a long time for as good a bargain as that to come round again.