Lighting circuit without earth...can I move ceiling roses without rewiring the whole circuit?

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by Gareth Owen, 20 Nov 2021.

  1. Gareth Owen

    Gareth Owen

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    Hi,

    This question is really about whether moving a few ceiling roses (requiring the addition of wire) on an older circuit without earth will constitute a modification, requiring a rewire of the whole circuit to bring it up to current standards?

    The current circuit has been tested as safe, and will have class 2 accessories etc. I would like to upgrade the wiring at some point, but I just don't have the cash right now
     
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  3. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Who will know? Not being silly, but if this house was pre 1966 when the rules changed and I fitted new lights, unlikely to be a problem, I am not daft enough to try swapping bulbs when the lights are on, knowing no earth. But do it with a rented house, when some one has to do an EICR, or old persons house, where you have carers in the house, then a little different.

    We see on these pages where electricians can't agree on codes that should be awarded to items found during an EICR. We can argue until cows come home what is like for like.

    My parents old house built 1954, in 2010 the wiring was showing signs of degrading, but dad would not permit a rewire, so done around 2015 after he died, but it was a mixture, some cables seemed to be A1, others clearly needed replacing, and it seemed to be how hot they have been during their life. Upper floor worse than ground floor, maybe due to insulation or maybe sun on roof.

    Personally I would leave until ready for rewire, but there are loads of homes which had 12 volt down lights swapped to 230 volt down lights when moving from tungsten to LED which have no earth going to the fitting. And until some thing goes wrong there is no problem. But if some one is injured then courts want to point the finger.

    So the one which comes to mind is a water leak, and the lady (Emma Shaw) of the house was killed, due to lack of earth, plaster had put a screw through the cable, plumber had not glued the tun-dish, and the electricians mate fudged up some readings when testing, the electrical foreman was blamed and he had not even been on site.

    So you know without me saying you should not touch the lighting until ready to rewire, but I am sure many do, and very few get caught, as unless some one dies, no one looks.
     
  4. flameport

    flameport

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    Relocating items and adding cable is obviously an addition and alteration to a circuit.
    CPCs have been required for all circuits since 1966, well over half a century ago.
    Extending or altering a circuit that doesn't have one won't comply with BS7671.

    132.16.png

    In that case, the existing lights will have to remain where they are.
    It's already several decades overdue for rewiring.

    There are two ways to do electrical work - properly or not at all.
     
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  5. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    You seem to be getting very strict and pedantic lately.

    What "earthing and bonding arrangements" are necessary for a plastic ceiling rose and e.g. a pendant?
     
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  6. Gareth Owen

    Gareth Owen

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    Thank you everybody.

    My reading, then, is that the quoted reg, BS7671 132.16 doesn't seem prevent what I propose - ratings won't change and the Class 2 switches, rose and fittings are, on their own, 'adequate' protective measures.
     
  7. winston1

    winston1

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    It doesn’t because among other things the regs are not statutory.
     
  8. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    I agree. It will not be made less safe than it is now.
     
  9. Gareth Owen

    Gareth Owen

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    Ah, true, but I'm thinking about likely EICR results, which do matter to me.
     
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  11. Harry Bloomfield

    Harry Bloomfield

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    Given the likely age of this installation, then I think that an illegal modification to the existing circuit is the least of your problems for an EICR.

    If the existing is extended, it will be perfectly obvious anyway, unless you have a stash of early 1960's available materials to use.
     
  12. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    What is "an illegal modification"?

    Gareth is wanting to move some lights.
     
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  13. Harry Bloomfield

    Harry Bloomfield

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    I'm sure you understood what I meant..
     
  14. Gareth Owen

    Gareth Owen

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    Thanks Harry,

    As it happens, the sockets etc have been rewired, just the lights haven't. Odd, maybe, but that's how it was when I bought it.

    I'm not looking to conceal anything...was going to add using maintenance free junction box using twin and Earth, with the earth properly terminated for future use.

    However, there is, for me at least, a significant difference between and C1, C2 and a C3.... C3 means that I can choose when I spend my limited money.
     
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  15. BS3036

    BS3036

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    Out of interest, is this for a rental (presumably)?
     
  16. Justin Passing

    Justin Passing

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    Sounds like C3
    "Code C3
    Code 3 is described as ‘Improvement recommended.’

    This means something has been identified which does not comply with the latest regulations but isn’t actually dangerous. For example, the installation may not comply with the current version of the regulations or may have damaged fittings which do not have exposed live parts. A code C3, in itself, should not warrant an overall unsatisfactory report." (Intersafe)

    Cue "ah, yes, but..."
     
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  17. Gareth Owen

    Gareth Owen

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    Hi,

    Not really, it's my home, but maybe in the future? I just like to do things properly, or as properly as I can, saving avoidable headaches or at least knowing what headaches I might be creating..
     
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