Loft Conversion - Electrical Certificate + Downlights probs!

[jarvisjones]

1) ELECTRICAL CERTIFICATE:

We just got a loft conversion at our home in Scotland. The building contractor was very good (it seemed), but it turns out he used an unregistered electrician to carry out the electrical work and to sign the certificate.

This isn't passing muster with Inverclyde Building Standards, as it appears the sparky HAS to be registered with either NICEIC or SELECT.

We're trying to get the builder to sort the problem, but he insists there isn't one! And our designer doesn't seem to be able to persuade him either.

Am tempted to just get a qualified electrician to conduct a periodic inspection, but am worried in case i) we incur the cost of the builder's mistake; ii) if there are faults to be corrected, would we incur these if we've bypassed getting the builder to sort out a registered electrician?

This probably sounds like mince, but not having done anything like this before, I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone, and wondered if anyone of you could help. PLEASE?!

2) DOWNLIGHT:

Second prob is that I've just realised the sparky drilled a hole too big for one of the downlights so that it won't fit properly. Not only this, but he positioned it directly next to a wooden roof beam.

Have found way of re-positioning this light (and filling hole in plasterboard), but don't know if I should do this BEFORE a periodic inspection by a third-party (qualified) electrician, or wait to see what they say? (We probably need a qualified periodic inspection, as it's impossible for me to tell what other mistakes the original electrician may have made...)

Any advice would be gratefully recieved, as it's all beginning to do my nogging in - can't get the completion certificate as Inverclyde BS won't inspect the place until a valid electrical certificate is supplied.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Hello Mark,
I'm not sure how the Building Controls work in Scotland but in England and Wales the whole job would have been overseen by the building controls officer and they would have issued certs

 

[jarvisjones]

Thanks!

Do you mean that there would have been regular inspections throughout the project?

I think it does differ slightly up here in Scotland, but I'm beginning to worry about that too - nothing about visits/inspections was ever mentioned, but we may have made a mistake in just trusting the contractor to handle everything - which is what he told us to do...

Maybe it's okay - the electrical and building certs just needed signed by registered parties. Our prob is that the electrical one wasn't.

Thanks again.

 

[ericmark]

As with PrenticeBoyofDerry I know Scotland is different but not exactly what is allowed. But in general terms.

Any electrical work domestic or commercial should be inspected and tested as it is installed and on completion and either a minor works certificate or an installation certificate should be issued. This has nothing to do with Part P it is what is laid out in BS7671:2008 or 17th Edition as it is better know.

In rest of UK one would either need to be registered or you need to inform the LABC before starting. With a job like you relate to the local authority building control (LABC) would already be notified as there is other building work. So in rest of UK the electrician would not need to be registered as the whole job would be under LABC.

However in rest of UK we do find the LABC seem to make their own rules and often try to charge extra and ask for things to be done which is not really within their remit.

If this job had been in rest of UK I would have guessed that the builder had not included the electrical work in the original application so the LABC were under the impression they did not need to inspect and test the electrical work. If Scotland is similar then one would need to carefully read the application the builder had submitted to see if LABC or Builder was at fault.

As to a PIR this should not replace an installation cert and although sometimes LABC will accept them they also may not so you need to be sure yours will accept a PIR before up pay out.

As to lamp the regs say:-
422.3.1 Except for equipment for which an appropriate product standard specifies requirements, a luminaire shall be kept at an adequate distance from Combustible materials. Unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer, a small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(ii) Over 100 and up to 300 W 0.8 m
(iii) Over 300 and up to 500 W 1.0 m
NOTE: A luminaire with a lamp that could eject flammable materials in case of failure should be constructed with a safety protective shield for the lamp in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

In real terms fire hoods are normally required with any lamps not specially designed for use near to combustible materials and in most cases "Unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer" is main part and you will have to read paperwork that came with lamp. I would say it needs moving but when and by whom is something you need to work out.

I hope some Scottish electrician can give you better answers but this should help I hope?

 

[jarvisjones]

Thanks Ericmark,

I really appreciate the detailed reply. Will have to really look into everything you say and try and figure it all out!

Just wish there was someone here who would give a definitive answer - I don't really mind if it turns out to be our fault that we didn't take absolute control of what the builder was doing with the project - fair enough! I just need to know where we stand and what the best way is of ensuring everything's safe and gets passed as completed!

Thanks again,
Mark

 

[skenk]

In my opinion it is down to a misinterpretation of the regs by Inverclyde BS. They must accept or decline the certificate after having made 'reasonable enquiry' (undefined). If they have made no such enquiry then they should not be rejecting the certificate.

This guidance note (admittedly it is only a guidance note) explains (well actually it's about as clear as mud) the situation where electrical installations are not certified by an approved certifier [NICEIC/SELECT].

http://www.sabsm.co.uk/publications/SBSA & SABSM Electrical Guidance 16-01-06 & revised 29-03-06.pdf

Page 3, Aim 3: Local authorities . . . must have processes in place to address and deal with all types of installations carried out by both approved certifiers and non-certified installers.

Page 4, 2. 2nd bullet point: Where a Certifier of Construction is not used for an electrical installation, the verifier [local authority BC] must make reasonable enquiry before accepting or rejecting the Completion Certificate.

The rest of the document goes on to mention further checking may be necessary . . . verifier may seek independent inspection and test etc. etc. Nowhere does it say the installer MUST be certified.

Sadly it seems more and more local authorities (of which I am aware - Ayrshire, Edinburgh and Inverclyde; not insisting - Angus, Glasgow) are insisting that only SELECT/NICEIC can sign off building warrant works which I think is a load of rubbish, and to the letter of the law means that only those registered and paying the extortionate annual fees could move a socket 2 inches in a 3-storey house or flat.

Best of luck sorting it out. If you find any actual laws in relation to this matter i would be interested to know the details.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

We're trying to get the builder to sort the problem, but he insists there isn't one! And our designer doesn't seem to be able to persuade him either.
.
.
can't get the completion certificate as Inverclyde BS won't inspect the place until a valid electrical certificate is supplied.

Have you paid the builder?

If not then it seems to me that a simple way to get him to recognise that there is a problem that needs sorting out is to tell him you won't pay until the completion certificate is in your hands.

 

[skenk]

Just to clarify, have you been given a completed Electrical Installation Certificate? Completed and signed by the electrician who did the work and including schedules of inspections and test results?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

he used an unregistered electrician to carry out the electrical work and to sign the certificate.

 

[skenk]

The last certificate I saw which was not completed by myself was incorrectly completed and had no schedules of inspections or tests (it was, however on NICEIC paper and by a NICEIC registered spark). Just because the sparky signed it does not mean it was correctly completed, which is what I am getting at as an incorrectly completed cert would be grounds for Inverclyde BC to declare it invalid and reject it.

If the answer from the OP is 'yes' the next question is, can you post a picture?

Don't assume Bas, it makes . . . .

And in regard to your last post, it's hardly the builders fault if the cert supplied is valid and it's Inverclyde BS at fault, and dealing with the council etc. was not part of the works quoted for by said builder.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) It is the builder's fault if the certificate is invalid.

2) It is not the builder's fault if the council are not behaving correctly, but it is his professional failing if he acted in a way which he knew would cause problems and was not in his client's best interest. Irrespective of whether the council should be doing what they are he should not have used a non-registered electrician, no matter how competent he was, without discussing the implications of that with his client.

 

[jarvisjones]

Thanks Ban-All-Sheds!

To be honest, that's my opinion. I just wished he'd said, "Look, I'm going to use an unregistered electrician. His name is ... and he's a mate of mine, and I have all the documentation of other jobs we've done. Is this fine with you?" Then (as a really stooopid novice in these matters) I'd have had a chance to check it out.

Legally, maybe it's our fault for not keeping a closer eye on the paperwork whilst the work was going on ( - unless you meant that it IS legally his fault?)

In a way, I don't mind it being our fault - I just want a straight answer from either builder, sparky, architect or council so I can sort it out and get it all passed.

Our problem was that we'd never started a project like this (or any other). So we just trusted the builder because he said he knew what he was doing and that we were to leave all the sub-contracting (plumber, sparky) to him.

(NB. The builder was recommended to us by both our architect/designer and another local contractor trusted by us but who couldn't do the work himself because he was too busy. That is, we didn't go to the builder completely blind.)

With hindsight, I'd definitely advise anyone else to be a lot more hands-on and questioning. Builder is a nice, friendly guy (yes, yes - I know that sounds pathetically naive!), but thanked us one time for not being like his previous customer, who wanted lengthy conversations every night to find out exactly what was going on. Boy, do I wish I'd been like that customer! But, then, what if it's actually Inverclyde BS who are getting it wrong...?

Anyway. Probably over stressing about it all. I just want a completion certificate. But right now, I'm going to have a beer and hope the lights don't go out...

Yes, we have already paid the builder, but to give him credit, he did ring today to find out how the current situation is. Which, if he was a complete cowboy, he may not have done. That's the way I'm looking at it, anyway (beer sliding slowly down into gullet. Well, it HAS been a long day...).

Skenk - thanks! The certificate the sparky produced was on "proper" paper, and our architect told me tonight that this is a proper Part P (what's that? Still haven't googled it...) BS7671 form, as issued and individually numbered, which means he's got enough authority to have signed the form and to now have it passed by Inverclyde BS. I'm afraid I'm as useless at scanning as I am at building/electrics, so can't produce the form here for you to see...

However... I'm thinking that the best way forward might be just to toe the line with Inverclyde BS and get an independent PIR from a NICEIC/SELECT person they'll recognise - after all, the shoddy way the downlight was left leaves me with no confidence in the original sparky anyway. Guess it'll cost us, tho... What do you think?

Thanks for everyone's advice today. It's been really helpful, and it's also blooming reassuring to know I'm not alone in the boat! Really grateful to you all, and I'll tell you how things pan out in the next few days...

Mark

 

[skenk]

Sounds like the architect doesn't have a scooby as 'part p' is an English (and Welsh?) phenomenon and does not apply whatsoever in Scotland.

Do let us know the outcome of your dispute, best of luck getting it sorted.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

unless you meant that it IS legally his fault?

It is his professional responsibility to be aware of the environment in which he works. He should have known that Inverclyde BS would not accept a certificate from an unregistered electrician. IANAL, but that sounds to me like the grounds for a claim of negligence.

So we just trusted the builder because he said he knew what he was doing and that we were to leave all the sub-contracting (plumber, sparky) to him.

Either he did not know what he was doing, which makes him incompetent, or he did know and didn't care that what he was doing wouldn't work, which makes him incompetent.

The builder was recommended to us by both our architect/designer

http://test.riba.contensis.co.uk/Fi...olution/PracticalMatters/MakingAComplaint.pdf

 

[baldelectrician]

I am in SELECT and come across this frequently

The council are the ones who hold all the strings and down here (Ayrshire) they want a certificate from a SELECT / NICIEC company or someone who meets these standards.

Part P does not apply here (thank goodness)

You need to chat with a qualified SELECT / NICIEC company and ask what they can do.
I usually inpsect, test and issue either a 'satisfactory' PIR or a list of stuff needing done to bring it up to standard.

The client pays for the initial inspect and test. If I do the remedial works I do not charge a retest fee.

There are ways around the downlight issue- you could change the fittings to energy saving ones that can not take standard lamps (then the proximity to the wood becomes less of an issue)

Unfortunately you are 'the person ordering the work' so the buck for all the stuff stops with you, unless others have made undertakings to do certain bits (such as a structural engineer).

I do not do work for most builders now as they do not want to know what is actually required by building standards, only want you to do 'what's on the plans'.
The plans do not normally bear any relevance to the real life job situation (for electrics anyway)

Hope this helps, feel free to email me or pm me

Cheers
Bald