Because most often, condensing boilers are sealed system, not open vent.
Not all, I know. I am quite eccentric and I chose a Vitodens Compact.
Major water leak in central heating system
- Thread starter MaryJane7
- Start date
Not all, I know. I am quite eccentric and I chose a Vitodens Compact.
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Thanks for looking at my problem. Here are the answers to your queries.
1. I don't know if is a beam and block floor under the concrete (built 1988).
2. Yes, the header tank does have its own isolator tap (in the airing cupboard) and I've been turning that on to fill the header tank. The header tank is filled by mains, there is no tank above it.
3. my boiler is a Vaillant EcoTec Plus, which I think is a condensing boiler.
4. the boiler is next to the corner of the kitchen where the box is with the sewage pipe in it (is that a SVP pipe?). So yes the noise of running water is in that area but the boiler is completely switched off and has been for 3 days.
Also, would I hear water in that area anyway when it starts to run from the header tank - even if the leak isn't there?
5. the kitchen sink goes into the floor but I don't know if it then goes into this SVP plumbing duct.
6. I can't actually get close to this area as there's a fitted corner cupboard there, but I've taken the kick board off and there's no water on the concrete floor under this unit. I don't think I can break into the soil pipe duct without destroying the 1 year old kitchen units, worktop etc.
What can I do?
1. I don't know if is a beam and block floor under the concrete (built 1988).
2. Yes, the header tank does have its own isolator tap (in the airing cupboard) and I've been turning that on to fill the header tank. The header tank is filled by mains, there is no tank above it.
3. my boiler is a Vaillant EcoTec Plus, which I think is a condensing boiler.
4. the boiler is next to the corner of the kitchen where the box is with the sewage pipe in it (is that a SVP pipe?). So yes the noise of running water is in that area but the boiler is completely switched off and has been for 3 days.
Also, would I hear water in that area anyway when it starts to run from the header tank - even if the leak isn't there?
5. the kitchen sink goes into the floor but I don't know if it then goes into this SVP plumbing duct.
6. I can't actually get close to this area as there's a fitted corner cupboard there, but I've taken the kick board off and there's no water on the concrete floor under this unit. I don't think I can break into the soil pipe duct without destroying the 1 year old kitchen units, worktop etc.
What can I do?
If it was me I would certianly try to pull out the nearest unit to the duct.
In my own kitchen, it is the corner, and there is a gap between the two adjacent items. It si not necessary to disturb the worktop, although the units are probably screwed to each other, the wall and the worktop. You should only need to take out one.
Look at the boiler and see if there is any sign of a plastric pipe or hose coming out of it and going into the plumbing duct.
Luckily any damage to teh duct (it is probably just boxed in with plasterboard or ply) will not show once the unit goes back.
In my own kitchen, it is the corner, and there is a gap between the two adjacent items. It si not necessary to disturb the worktop, although the units are probably screwed to each other, the wall and the worktop. You should only need to take out one.
Look at the boiler and see if there is any sign of a plastric pipe or hose coming out of it and going into the plumbing duct.
Luckily any damage to teh duct (it is probably just boxed in with plasterboard or ply) will not show once the unit goes back.
Thanks MJ for getting back to us.
The SVP (soil vent pipe) is the sewage pipe. It will collect kitchen waste - the pipe from the sink will connect into it.
You are hearing water flow in this area. It is either water running out from a burst joint and running away below the sub floor or it could be the sound of mains water running into the header tank - it can be incredibly difficult to tell. Is the cold feed to upstairs fairly close to here, do you know?
Its time for some action - we just aren't getting anywhere.
You have to expose the svp duct I think - one way or another.
You may wish to consider an insurance claim here - but thats your business. Its sometimes possible to remove the kitchen unit without destroying the work top, if your luck is in.
Please lets know.
John
The SVP (soil vent pipe) is the sewage pipe. It will collect kitchen waste - the pipe from the sink will connect into it.
You are hearing water flow in this area. It is either water running out from a burst joint and running away below the sub floor or it could be the sound of mains water running into the header tank - it can be incredibly difficult to tell. Is the cold feed to upstairs fairly close to here, do you know?
Its time for some action - we just aren't getting anywhere.
You have to expose the svp duct I think - one way or another.
You may wish to consider an insurance claim here - but thats your business. Its sometimes possible to remove the kitchen unit without destroying the work top, if your luck is in.
Please lets know.
John
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Thats how there is 4" of water in the header tank and it goes down quick. As other posters have said close the isolator, then get someone to listen at the boxing as you open the isolator (with no other water running) as it could be here and running straight under the floor. The isolator will be the feed for the heating so you're not actually filling the header using this but stopping it going into the system.
Thanks for your replies. I've now been looking at the fitted kitchen cabinet next to the SVP.
I really don't think it can be moved out without destroying it. Its a large L shape with the outer corner of the L butting right up to the corner of the kitchen where the SVP is.
The cold feed to the main stop cock to the house is about 3 feet from the SVP pipe. I just can't be sure whether I'm hearing water running out from a burst joint and running away below the sub floor or other water sounds. The leak might be somewhere else entirely and I'm just not able to hear it.
The only other suggestion I've had is to bi-pass the leak by re-piping the 4 radiators downstairs and cutting off all the old downstairs pipework.
What do you think?
I really don't think it can be moved out without destroying it. Its a large L shape with the outer corner of the L butting right up to the corner of the kitchen where the SVP is.
The cold feed to the main stop cock to the house is about 3 feet from the SVP pipe. I just can't be sure whether I'm hearing water running out from a burst joint and running away below the sub floor or other water sounds. The leak might be somewhere else entirely and I'm just not able to hear it.
The only other suggestion I've had is to bi-pass the leak by re-piping the 4 radiators downstairs and cutting off all the old downstairs pipework.
What do you think?
I hardly know what to think now.....
So - bung the outlet of the heating header tank. Fill the header tank up to the overflow.
Turn the house water off. All should be quiet.
Get someone to release the bung from the header tank outlet.
Can you hear water running in the suspect area?
John
So - bung the outlet of the heating header tank. Fill the header tank up to the overflow.
Turn the house water off. All should be quiet.
Get someone to release the bung from the header tank outlet.
Can you hear water running in the suspect area?
John
I hardly know what to think now.....
So - bung the outlet of the heating header tank. Fill the header tank up to the overflow.
Turn the house water off. All should be quiet.
Get someone to release the bung from the header tank outlet.
Can you hear water running in the suspect area?
John
That's exactly what I was about to suggest
Is it possible just to remove the bottom of the unit,ie the lower shelf part that you put pans etc on? you may have to break it to do so,but could be put back after without ruining the outside of the cupboard,then drill a small access hole to listen/look with torch, while doing what Burnerman suggested above.
Repiping the lower floor is an option,you would have pipework coming down the walls to each rad though,if its done neatly in corners it doesnt look too bad.
Repiping the lower floor is an option,you would have pipework coming down the walls to each rad though,if its done neatly in corners it doesnt look too bad.
Only a thought, but it might be worthwhile lifting an inspection cover to see if the water is somehow getting in the soil pipe.
You should have an inspection cover in or near your drive.
You should have an inspection cover in or near your drive.
Thank you for all your helpful replies. Here is my latest update!
Lifted the inspection cover to see if the water is somehow getting in the soil pipe, but no joy there.
Then tried John's suggestion and filled the header tank up to the overflow, turned the house water off, got someone to release the water in the header tank and listened for water.
I could hear water running in the suspect area, but wasn't sure if this was just normal flowing down the pipe or whether I could also hear a leak.
So I returned to the suggestion that you gave earlier and enlisted help to get behind that corner cupboard. Eventually managed to totally expose everything in that area. No pipes running down alongside the SVP and no sign of dampness anywhere. Excavated about 3" into the concrete where the central heating pipes were, but again no sign of damp.
At this I decided to throw in the towel on my investigation and got both these central heating pipes capped. The upstairs central heating and hot water now work (hurray), and I'll be asking a plumber to repipe the lower floor with pipework coming down the wall in the corners.
Failed in my role as Miss Marple!! But many thanks to everyone who tried to help me.
Mary Jane
Lifted the inspection cover to see if the water is somehow getting in the soil pipe, but no joy there.
Then tried John's suggestion and filled the header tank up to the overflow, turned the house water off, got someone to release the water in the header tank and listened for water.
I could hear water running in the suspect area, but wasn't sure if this was just normal flowing down the pipe or whether I could also hear a leak.
So I returned to the suggestion that you gave earlier and enlisted help to get behind that corner cupboard. Eventually managed to totally expose everything in that area. No pipes running down alongside the SVP and no sign of dampness anywhere. Excavated about 3" into the concrete where the central heating pipes were, but again no sign of damp.
At this I decided to throw in the towel on my investigation and got both these central heating pipes capped. The upstairs central heating and hot water now work (hurray), and I'll be asking a plumber to repipe the lower floor with pipework coming down the wall in the corners.
Failed in my role as Miss Marple!! But many thanks to everyone who tried to help me.
Mary Jane
Ok MJ and thanks for that update...can you just describe as best you can where the leak is likely to be? Thanks
John
John
Thanks for your replies John and Axel.
I know that the leak is somewhere under the concrete floor downstairs, which is just small entrance hall, living room, kitchen and conservatory.
By removing the concrete and exposing the central heating pipes, I know that the leak is not in the corner of the kitchen with the SVP, the conservatory or the pipes leading into the conservatory. These seemed to be the likeliest places.
I lifted all the carpets downstairs and could find no areas of damp, nor could I hear water under the concrete when I tried the tests recommended by folk on this forum.
Sorry that I can't be more specific, but I really have drawn a blank.
How did you find where the water was leaking out, Axel?
Mary Jane
I know that the leak is somewhere under the concrete floor downstairs, which is just small entrance hall, living room, kitchen and conservatory.
By removing the concrete and exposing the central heating pipes, I know that the leak is not in the corner of the kitchen with the SVP, the conservatory or the pipes leading into the conservatory. These seemed to be the likeliest places.
I lifted all the carpets downstairs and could find no areas of damp, nor could I hear water under the concrete when I tried the tests recommended by folk on this forum.
Sorry that I can't be more specific, but I really have drawn a blank.
How did you find where the water was leaking out, Axel?
Mary Jane
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