pjholybloke said:
Vinyl wrap suits lots of things, time has moved on since you were manufacturing POS displays, advances have been made - I kid you not.
"since I was manufacturing" - and exactly what do you understand about furniture manufacturing, or when I was in it? rom what you write very little, I suspect. In durability terms vinyl wrap hasn't moved significantly in the last couple of years, not from what I've seen, at least. If anything the big improvements in the last 5 years have been in the glue-application technology, always the achilles heal of the process, and in improved UV resistance. Vinyl is still much thinner, softer and significantly less abrasion resistant than melamine and is still predominently used for light-usage, low-cost or short-life products which is why it is used for formed panels in bedrooms, vertical surfaces (such as doors) in kitchens and bathrooms, but not for carcassing, shelves or worktops in kitchens. As a fitter you are surely aware of this.
pjholybloke said:
I have a magnificent piece of designer furniture in my lounge, it's black high gloss vinyl-wrapped MDF, has a number of shelves and a door all specifically designed for the storing of - and therefore by definition the inserting and removal of CD's, DVD's, (god-forbid) videos etc. and despite much inserting and removing of said items, is displaying no sign of abrasion, delamination or any other form of pretentiously dressed-up material deterioration.
I remain sceptical about the "magnificent piece of designer furniture" when you say it's vinyl wrapped. Just wait, though....... time will tell. Vinyl wrap doesn't like very hot weather or exposure to UV (although that has improved over time) and bubbling and delamination of the facing from it's substrate are known problems in very warm climates. The problem is that glue bond breakdown is a slow process and it can take 5 to 10 years before this becomes obvious. Sadly on cheaper doors and panels (e.g. IKEA kitchen doors) dust inclusions and glue defects (generally betrayed by pimples or bumps and ripples or orange peel effect respectively when the surface is viewed obliquely) are still all too common. Personally were I making a piece of furniture like this I'd spray it - but that is a whole different (and more time-consuming) area normally outside the experience and ability of the average DIYer
pjholybloke said:
Let me get this straight, you are suggesting that pjrouse get a "jumbo" ripped down at a local board supplier and what then? Iron on the edging him/herself? Then after applying said edging at a sub-ideal temperature/pressure ratio actually attempt to trim it to a perfect size and angle? Using what and how exactly?
Exactly. I've named one company with two outlets in my region who offer just this "cut and band" service and who are willing to deal with members of the public:
Hills Panel Products (Oldham and Sheffield) and in the past I've also mentioned
Lawcris Panel Products in Leeds who offer a similar service, again to members of the public. I know a few smaller kitchen and bedroom makers who use cut and banded stock to make-up carcasses, so if you are in the trade surely you'd know about a service such as this? Or so I'd have thought. In other regions there are many other firms who offer this sort of service. As Jason says it's not an uncommon service. Had the OP told us whereabouts in the UK he was located it is likely that someone on here could have suggested a local supplier from experience. All it requires to find these firms is a few phone calls, and as I also gave two high-gloss board manufacturers's names,
Polyrey and
Finsa, who have distributors in the UK and who supply matching edging tape for their boards so I'd have thought it was relatively easy to sort out a materials supplier. Even you would have to admit that bringing the material in cut to size and edge banded almost ready to screw together is going to be simpler than trying to cut the materials without chipping out?
If you are a kitchen fitter, you should know that for small jobs and site repairs on PUR (hot-melt glue) coated melamine edging it is quite normal to remove damaged sections using a heat gun or dry iron and that replacement pieces can be simply ironed on using a dry iron at an appropriate setting. PUR glues used on melamine edge banding (and for that matter iron-on veneer edgings) tend to have a melt temperature of between 170 and 190 degrees Centigrade (i.e. within the range of a low cost £10 electric dry iron) and getting the banding to adhere is simply a matter of burnishing as they are cooling, something which can be done with the polished shaft of a screwdriver. If you haven't melted the glue sufficiently then it is possible to remelt and reburnish. It can take practice, but not that much. It isn't rocket science. If you ever buy a roll of pre-glued melamine edging tape from somewhere like B&Q I believe that you'll find they give instructions along the lines I've stated. Not much optimum temperature/pressure there, is there? I've been into a number of places making melamine-edged carcasses and you'll still find a heat gun or dry iron in the vicinity of that £35,000 edge-bander because it is often quicker to do a one-off board in an oddball colour this way than reload and reset the bander with another colour/size/width of edging tape.
And as to laminate trimming, that can be accomplished with a £3.50 Stanley glass scraper or a good sharp plane iron. It isn't the optimum angle and it might take all of a couple of minutes to learn the technique, but once again I've seen the technique used in quite a few trade places and used it myself. On 3mm PVC or ABS edgebanding where the edges are obvious then edge angle is significant, but on melamine tape which is all of 0.6 to 0.8mm thick "optimum angle" is probably a bit of a red herring. The main thing is to ensure a clean, lightly burnished edge with no arrisses (sharp edges to non woodworkers). If you're really keen to buy a tool to do it all, then
Ney in Coventry will sell you a
Virutex AU93 double hand edge trimmer for about £30 and a
Virutex RC21E end trimmer for about the same (although the glass scraper used carefully will do almost the same job), with Rutlands doing a
cheaper copy for about £18. These tools trim and burnish the edges in one pass. I'm just amazed that a "kitchen fitter" wouldn't know how to melamine edge band a carcass or seek to describe it as difficult. Is this some kind of trade secret that I shouldn't reveal?
pjholybloke said:
It appears to me there is a control issue going on here Scrit. My agenda? "Try to help". Your agenda? You tell me.
I am not the one who continually gainsays others and proffers advice seemingly not garnered from experience (possibly such as your comments on the maia worktop?). If your agenda is to try to help, then why are you gibbing at others with different/contrary experience offering their advice?
pjholybloke said:
But if you're suggesting that you have the answer to everyone's questions, I don't know. But I would suggest you would come across as less belligerent if you focused more on the original question as opposed to trying to undermine other people's contributions.
No. I stick to what I know. Read your comment again and ask yourself who's being belligerent? It is
you who seems to take offence that someone holds an opinion different to yours with regards to the durability and suitability of vinyl wrap materials and
you who is trying to devalue my suggestions about board sourcing and edge banding. So what's
your problem?
pjholybloke said:
pjrouse actually stated in the original post that the objective was a look similar to their kitchen doors???? Not many kitchen doors made out of MFC nowadays are there?
The surface finish of high gloss MFC and MF-MDF are actually very similar to high-gloss vinyl-wrapped doors, something you seem to be unwilling to accept. You can get the same effect by using polished acrylics, 2k spraying and brush lacquering, although all take much more effort to achieve a good quality surface finish. I've done all three at various times, but I can hardly commend them as DIY approaches because of the stringent cleanliness and specialised equipment required .
pjholybloke said:
Surely the point is to provide information the individual seeking help can work with, rather than to try and become the dominant source of DIY succour?
So, my response, the first to the OP, was unhelpful? That I considered your approach potentially flawed seems to have aroused you anger. There are other high count posters on here with a lot to offer. Should they also go away so you can hold court? If anyone wishes to dispute what I have to say they are welcome to do so, but I do tend to respond based on experience rather than hearsay or bias and I have quite a bit of experience over a wider field that kitchen fitting. I say, re-read your comments and ask yourself who's being churlish and insulting.
pjholybloke said:
Don't know who died and bequeathed you the oracle, but suggest you polish it and look again.
Nobody. In the same way that nobody gives you the right not to have your assertions challenged.
pjholybloke said:
I've got no axe to grind here, but feel somewhat aggrieved at your consistent and thinly-disguised efforts to dismiss just about everything I suggest.
So with no axe to grind you have subjected us all, and me in particular, to this pointless diatribe. I have not dismissed everything you've said, but I have proffered an alternative opinion. You seem to have difficulty accepting it. Why?
pjholybloke said:
No hard feelings, you tell me if I've got you all wrong. E-mail me and we'll sort it out in a less public domain.
And at the end of quite an insulting missive you think it alright to say "no hard feelings"? Obviously you were brought-up to believe that insulting another first and then offering a half-hearted apology afterwards is acceptable. Wars have started for less! Perhaps if you'd emailed me first before posting I'd feel that comment was heartfelt. In fact you're not the only trained person on here, there are a number of us, and your experiences may not be as wide as you think (at times I know mine aren't, but in those instances I refrain from commenting). I still find that I'm learning stuff from other people here and elsewhere and that their input stimulates me to go off and investigate many new things which I then incorporate into my approach to the job if they are appropriate. That my experiences and opinions are different to yours is hardly surprising. But that doesn't make me wrong and you right, or for that matter vice versa.
Scrit
