Megaflo or something else

This may seem a stupid question but why aren't megaflows fitted with failsafe stats like I just fitted to my immersion - if its fails - so I'm told - it fails in the off position, so my 3 year old in bed beneath the cold tank can sleep sound ...

:evil:

So the theory goes. If all devices fail they explode.
 
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I feel like I've lit the touch paper here! Bit of a contentious subject to say the least. But thank you to everyone for your input - most informative.

So as simple layman it seems I have 2 choices. The unvented Megaflo or the other one which I need to read up on as I don't know how it works.

So the next question is price comparison. Ball park figures, what are we talking as:

1. set up cost for the Megaflo in this case, plus annual service charges
2. set up cost Dr D's solution

A heat bank offers so much more especially when CH is run from it. No contest.

Ignore labour charges if it makes the question easier to answer, given you don't know the layout.

While we are at it we might as well ask are there any other factors - apart from the house blowing up - that need to be taken into consideration e.g. typical parts that go wrong on either system.

Thanks again

Heat banks use off the shelf parts. Like Grundfos pumps which you can buy at the local B&Q even on a Sunday.
 
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It seems to me that it's everyone against Dr D, but I haven't really heard any argument that stands up yet.

Dr D says his way provides better pressure to the showers etc, I can control different zones as which sounds like a good thing - and I will certainly need to in the flat. Plus I'm sure there were other benefits.

I'm not a pessimist so I'm not worried about things blowing up or boilers failing and having not water or heating - I'll go to the gym and have a shower then go down the pub!

So, is the truth 'lazy plumbers' - heating engineers or whatever you're calling yourself these days i.e. you know how to fit a Megaflo and having to think about anything else or work out how to install something different is too much trouble. Tell the thick client Megalfo is best, he won't know any different and he's paying the bill anyway so it doesn't matter how much it costs.

What I'm getting at is - if you haven't guessed - spell out the benefits of Megaflo over the other option.

Cheers

I'm off down the pub just in case my boiler blows up
 
Extendingsoon said:
So, is the truth 'lazy plumbers' - heating engineers or whatever you're calling yourself these days i.e. you know how to fit a Megaflo and having to think about anything else or work out how to install something different is too much trouble. Tell the thick client Megalfo is best, he won't know any different and he's paying the bill anyway so it doesn't matter how much it costs.
Is that how you flatter the people from whom you're seeking free advice?

spell out the benefits of Megaflo over the other option.
D'ya know what? I really can't be bothered.
 
It seems to me that it's everyone against Dr D, but I haven't really heard any argument that stands up yet.

They don't think. They do what they have been doing day in day out for 20 years. 1 years experience repeated 20 times.

What I'm getting at is - if you haven't guessed - spell out the benefits of Megaflo over the other option.

You will be waiting....a long time.
 
I've recently taken delivery of a heat bank from a supplier that Dr D quotes alot and to be honest i'm not impressed.

Cost is 3 times that of an unvented. :cry:
Build quality isnt anything special for the cost(thats being polite). :evil:
And the bloody thing came out its bubble wrap damaged. :evil:

Just hope the thing performs :confused:
 
Doctor Drivel said:
They do what they have been doing day in day out for 20 years. 1 years experience repeated 20 times.
That would make 21 years.

You need to learn how to do simple arithmetic.
 
Mr Extendinsoon, contray to DrD comments us heating engineers try to fit the best, subject to customers wishes and budget.
For an unvented & thermal store to function correctly you require an adequatly sizes water main for sufficient flow. rember the word FLOW its the important bit.
As you state you are having a new main fitted.
No advantage/disadvantage yet.
Thermal stores operates on incoming mains pressure.
Unvented governed at 3 bar
In Surrey you will be lucky to get 3 bar anyway.
No advantage/disadvantage yet.
210 ltr unvented megaflow/santon £640 + vat
Thermal store, not listed in merchants catalouge. wonder why?
No advantage/disadvantage yet.
Unvented requires a G3 installer.
Any idiot can install a thermal store.
I personally do not employ the services of idiots, only use qualified tradesmen.
The labour cost of installation is same, qualified people charge the same as idiots.
No advantage/disadvantage yet.
Unvented megaflow comes with 25 year warranty on cylinder.
Thermal store, not listed in merchants catalouge. Wonder why?
No advantage/disadvantage yet.
Unvented cylinder will require checking on annual basis, have done with boiler service, max 1 hour.
Thermal store will require checking on annual basis, have done with boiler service, max 1 hour.
No advantage/disadvantage yet.
Unvented has temp/pressure fail safe and discharge devices. Can blow up, so can your car tv microwave boiler, the list is endless.
A thermal store can split/corrode leak, water could be 90 deg c.
No advantage/disadvantage yet. they both make a mess.
Unvented will give max flow rate at outlets possible from outlets subject to incoming water.
A thermal store will raise the incoming water by 35 deg c, flow rate fluctuates due to thermal temp/incoming temp/resistence plate ex, coil.
Advantage unvented.
Unvented not overly affected by water hardness/scale
Thermal store coil/plate ex affected by water hardness/scale
Surrey is a hard water area.
Advantage unvented.

Does that help. PS remember 35 deg c temp rise, same principal as all combination boilers.

At the end of the day the choice is yours, its your money and home. And you cant just fit TRV's on the zones, its a requirement to have a boiler interlock. To save energy. If its a big property it will require zoning. If your worried about breakdowns have a couple of boilers linked via a low loss header on alternating cycles lead & lag + (a spare in a box)
The possibilities are endless what you can and cant do, its all down to space/money/expectations/requirements.
 
Apologies to anyone hurt by previous comments, but there was a lot of talk and no facts.

Many thanks to Heatingman. Some very valid points there as far as I can see, and given my lack of concern over petty things like the house blowing up, I would certainly say advantage Megaflo.

Be interesting to see what De D comes back with.

Thanks again
 
Extendingsoon said:
Be interesting to see what De D comes back with.
That's what's called a contradiction in terms. ;)

For example, it will be predictable, in that he/she will claim that:

Everyone who disagrees with him/her has less knowledge and experience.
Everyone who disagrees with him/her doesn't have the capacity to understand what he/she claims are very simple concepts.
Anyone with less knowledge and experience is an incompetent tradesperson who shouldn't be let into peoples' homes.
Everyone should read the information that he/she has "directed" us to read.
Anyone, who points out the flaws in what he/she posts, can't read.
 
Heat-Banks

Instant high pressure hot water - When the thermal-store has reached the set temperature, water is delivered instantly at the taps.

Usable hot water in a matter of minutes - From a heatup from cold usable hot water is available at the taps within minutes.

Very high water flow-rate - The high-end heat-banks have a flow-rate up to 45 litres/min.

Operates on low incoming pressures - Requires a supply pressure of 1 bar to obtain a good flow-rate.

Operates on high incoming pressures - Will operate up to 10 bar without a pressure reducer.

Long efficient boiler burn - Reduces boiler on-off cycling increasing efficiency. Inefficient boiler cycling is no longer a major problem with boilers with forced flues.

Maintains optimum boiler temperature range - The boiler Deta T is maintained giving boiler high efficiency and longevity.

Combines the output of the stored water and the boiler -

Cylinder may be smaller for a similar performance

Cylinder at low pressure - Unlike an unvented cylinder it does not store water at high pressures. No risk of an explosion.

Fast cylinder recovery rate - When the boiler is connected directly to the heat-bank or an indirect coil, the recovery rate is rapid.

Legionella bacteria eliminated - The Legionella bacteria cannot survive in the high temperature sealed conditions of a heat-bank's DHW section.

No scale build-up in heat-bank - Containing primary and not secondary fresh water, scale does not build-up inside the heat-bank, either on primary coils or immersion heaters.

Cold water storage eliminated - No need for cold water storage tanks.

Solar heating storage - Water heated via solar panels may be stored in the heat-bank via a solar coil.

Caters easily for multiple heat sources - Electric, gas, oil, solar, solid fuel and heat pumps can safely heat the one cylinder. The ideal solution.

Easy maintenance - If an external plate heat exchanger requires cleaning or replacing it is a matter of draining down the heat-bank, or closing isolating vales, and unscrewing the plate heat-exchanger. In some rare instances plate heat-exchangers are fitted directly inside the heat-bank preventing the unscrewing of the plate, however, de-scaling can be performed.

Easy to improve hot water flowrates - By simply adding additional plate heat-exchangers in parallel, hot water flow rates may be improved. Retrofit additions are possible if extra bathrooms or showers are installed.

Stored water vessel need not be cylindrical - As no internal coil is used for hot water heat transfer the stored water vessel may be any shape, as opposed to a thermal store which has to be cylindrical for maximum efficiency. Unvented cylinders need to be cylindrical to create a robust shape because of high pressures. This shape advantage is ideal where space is limited, promoting excellent packaging.

Integrated Heat Banks can run CH off cylinder - This enables TRVs on all rads when using an auto speed pump like a Wilo Smart or Grundfos Alpha. This give instant heat up in the mornings.

Creates a Superb CH buffer for free - A CH buffer is created, evening out heating distribution to demand. This puts less stress on the boiler.

Boiler sized for average not peak use -

Boiler can be a simple, cheaper more reliable boiler.

Boiler can be large and not cycle, giving fast recovery rates - Boilers can be large and be accommodated and not cycle as overlarge boilers do when connected directly to radiators. The heat up recovery rate is very fast.

Failsafe - When open vented, the system is failsafe and cannot explode.

No Overflow Pipes - On some models a discharge or overflow pipe is unnecessary. This means a heat bank can be fitted centrally in a house and not near an outside wall

Full DHW & CH Electric Backup - Electric immersions can provide CH & DHW backup.

Unvented cylinders

Air pocket reinstatement - On some models, not all, the air pocket cushion at the top of the cylinder needs to be reinstated approximately once a year.

Certified installation - Installation in the United Kingdom are to be performed only by a heating engineer or plumber who is certified to fit unvented cylinders.

Regular Annual service checks - Unvented cylinder models require periodic service checks by a certified installer. A cost just to store hot water.

Sacrificial anode replacement - If fitted, needs replacing approximately every five years.

High-pressure relief valve and pipe - A large bore pipe leading to outside of the house needs to be installed.

Loses heat - Heat is lost from the stored water in the cylinder when standing over a period of time.

No secondary back-up of water - If the mains supply fails, there is no cold water storage.

Three port mid-position valves unsuitable - On the primary heating circuit, only motorised zone vales incorporating a spring return to close when the motor is de-energised can be used. It is possible for a three port mid-position valve to fail on open raising the cylinder temperature.

Cannot run CH off the cylinder

Not failsafe - Can explode if safety devices fail.

Also look at for further info:
http://www.heatweb.com/products/cylinders/heatbank/pandora.html
 
That was hardly a scientific or objective evaluation.

I wonder where that load of marketing cr*p came from. :rolleyes:
 

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