Mole a new water main or fit combi and fit accumulator?

[Marmiteontoast]

View media item 93856
mystery jammed tap under the sink, on right hand side.

stopcock is on other side of the kitchen. [/img]

 

[Agile]

If you listen to the tap with a listening stick and then get others to turn on various outlets you may be able to discover what flow through it.

It may be the cause of your apparently poor flow in spite of a good static pressure!

Tony

 

[Gasguru]

Sorry I don't know what check valves/ strainers / service valve are.
Our stopcock is in the kitchen so no frost damage there. I don't know about the one in the road.

Google check valves etc, otherwise we'll be here forever

In either end of the outside tap are spring loaded one way valves....

http://www.plasson.co.uk/catalogue/group/1280/nameblock/Bib-Tap-with-DCV

However, you need to check that stopcock...get a stopcock key or use pump pliers etc to check it's fully open.

Also consider cutting out the back panel to see what's going on....kitchen fitters cause no end of plumbing problems.

You've measured 22 litres/min but not quoted the corresponding pressure.

 

[Marmiteontoast]

Many thanks for all your replies.

Agile
I haven't even heard of a listening stick (I actually thought you were pulling my leg)
http://www.hydrohire.com/acatalog/leak-detection.html - £80 to hire ouch
Gasguru
or a stopcock key or pump pliers (had a go with normal pliers to no avail). I googled check valves and see what they are but don't know how to check it they are functioning correctly.

So you wanted me to to take the pressure at each outlet, when I was measuring the flowrate, with the other taps open?? to get the the corresponding pressure? Wish I had realised that then.

This is all getting MEGA confusing and measuring the flow was a RIGHT pain as I had to drag the washing machine out again which is like a baby elephant, and measuring the flow under the sink was basically like having a shower as the end of the dishwasher hose disappeared behind the units so I couldn't put that in the bucket, so I had to disconnect the hose, and measure the flow coming staight out the pipe, and try and direct it into the bucket with a plastic bag. Everywhere got soaked! It was spraying out like a jet! My husband had to run around doing the timings and turning the taps on and off as I couldn't let go of the bag. Outside, the first TWO buckets I used had splits in so leaked all over my feet when I picked them up. It was great!

Anyway, it's all cleared up now, and now I find I should have been measuring the pressure at the same time! I thought I cracked the pressure questions earlier today. I quit - I can't do that all again.

So Gasguru or Agile would you be so kind as to visit and you can discover the holy grail figures you seek. We are near Leatherhead, so close to London.

I really appreciate all the help and suggestions. But my one question seems be leading to 5 more, and then 10 more, and it's got a little complex for me with no plumbing training.

I don't understand why none of the 4 plumber who visited and quoted actually tried to measure the flow or pressure, when it is apparently such a crucial element of the equation. ...

 

[Gasguru]

I've PM'd you.

 

[Dan Robinson]

But my one question seems be leading to 5 more, and then 10 more, .

The joys of the job I'm afraid.

I don't understand why none of the 4 plumber who visited and quoted actually tried to measure the flow or pressure, when it is apparently such a crucial element of the equation. ..

They are either very confident in their experience of the area and the houses in it. Or they are chancers. Unless they did some quick checks that you didn't see.

Be cautious of them though.

 

[Agile]

A listening stick is anything long and comfortable enough to enable you to put one end on the tap and the other on your ear.

A large screwdriver is often a good solution.

Any conscientious engineer will always do some kind of test on your pressure and flow rate before recommending any system.

Tony

 

[Marmiteontoast]

Good evening all

At the risk of sending myself mad, after a couple of days I have had another crack it this.

Bought some more pliers today, and had a go at the seized up stopcock under the sink and with a LOT of WD40 and wrenching, managed to get it moving but found it had been open all along. And it just goes to the garden tap. That's all.
So a bit inconclusive. I found the washing machine was not on the mains supply, so I remeasured flow and pressure ignoring that. Hopefully I've got it right this time.

View media item 93961

I've spoken to a plumber neighbour to pop over tomorrow to help with the pressure / flow measurements, if what I did today is still wrong!

Not sure how to take the pressure of kitchen tap without disconnecting the whole thing.

Are these figures sufficient to advise me on type of CH system, moling new mains? If so, what's your advice?
(4 people ( 2 adults 2 kids), in future 2 bathrooms + 1 shower ; we want the shower no weaker than current pumped Aqualisa)

If not (eg if the kitchen tap pressure measurement is vital, or valve fault you suggested is present makes all these figures meaningless), please please advise VERY SPECIFIC NOVICE STYLE instructions that I can relay to the plumber tomorrow.

Many thanks.

 

[Agile]

Be aware that not all plumbers understand what is required.

I do have to say that I don't understand your chart.

Tony

 

[Marmiteontoast]

You are fast!

I'll explain chart:
The second line shows with dishwasher outlet open and kitchen tap open, the garden tap had a flow of 6.4 litres per min and a pressure of 0.8bar.
3rd line shows with dishwasher outlet shut and kitchen tap shut, the garden tap had a flow of 14litres per min and a pressure of 4.8bar.

Yes my neighbour said he might not recall the physics but can help me measure if necessary.

 

[Marmiteontoast]

We took off garden tap and measured directly to the wall.


Static 3.8bar, 14 litres / min flow
+kitchen tap on, dropped to 2.5bar, 12 L/min
+ dishwasher outlet on, dropped to 0 bar 9 L/min

Is this the data required?

 

[Agile]

All you seem to have done is measured a static supply pressure and an open pipe flow rate at the garden tap of 14 li/min.

Still not the dynamic flow rate which I was hoping for!

Can you measure the pressure at the DW and see what flows you can get from garden and kitchen taps while leaving a pressure of 1.0 bar at the gauge on the DW.

Let both taps flow together and add the two flow rates.

I think we will get there eventually!

Tony

 

[Marmiteontoast]

Hiya,

(my previous post only mentions dishwasher, garden tap and kitchen tap, not WMC)

washing machine is NOT on mains, dishwasher IS on mains.

so shouldn't I ignore the WMC completely now when I measure?

 

[Agile]

Sorry, from a plumbing supply point of view a WMC and DW have the same needs. Have edited my previous post.

A WMC should normally be connected to a mains supply where possible as they will otherwise take longer to fill as the flow resistance through the inlet solenoid valves is quite high.

Tony

 

[Marmiteontoast]

Can you measure the pressure at the DW and see what flows you can get from garden and kitchen taps while leaving a pressure of 1.0 bar at the gauge on the DW.
Tony

So I'll put the gauge on the DW. Then open kitchen tap and garden tap and measure flow from each.

but how do I " leave a pressure of 1.0 bar at the gauge at the DW"?
1) open and close the DW tap to adjust level on gauge?
or
2) open and close kitchen tap to adjust level on gauge at DW?
or
3) neither of these?