Moving ceiling rose

[pdbennett]

Hello,

I would like to move the ceiling rose in my bedroom to make it more central. This will require extending the existing wiring, but I would like to know the safest way (and within regulation) of doing this, please.

I have extended electrical wiring before using inline Wago lever connectors so that side of things is straightforward.

I have three cables dropping down through the ceiling. See below.

I have two live twisted together, neutral and earth wired into my ceiling rose. See Below.

I intended on simply using a length of twin and earth. Using two 2-way inline connectors to individually join the neutral and earth, and for the live, I was going to use a 3-way connector (or wire nut) to join my 3 live cores. Can I safely join these three individual cables to a single length of twin and earth in this way?

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[ebee]

Well if you joining 3 existing T & E into another (4th) T & E you need 4 way (or more) Wago`s etc in a suitable enclosure, for a start - - note -it really should be an encloure specifically produced for that wago type connector, in other words by the same manufacturer and the words "MF or Maintenance Free" embossed on it.

What it looks like you might have at the moment is LEN in and LEN out and then a Permanent L plus a Switched L and the three L conductors are joined above the ceiling instead of in the ceiling rose terminal. a bit nasty. Actually you might instead have another light fitting somewhere and the colour coding is all wrong (even for the old colours!)

 

[Murdochcat]

Sometimes the existing cables are long enough to go to the preferred location

 

[pdbennett]

Thanks for the response and thanks for the advice.

I should pull the wires out of the ceiling rose to see what I have, but I don't appear to have 3 x T&E, it looks like I have 2 x single core cables (maybe they do have an E, but cut back) and then another single core + earth.

I completely agree, it is nasty which i why I stopped and thought I needed to figure this out.

And no, unfortunately, the existing wiring is tight there is no slack.

Thanks.

 

[SUNRAY]

I think you have quite correctly assessed the situation: 3 single cables and at least one but possibly 2 or all 3 also include an earth. However I'd make a guess the 2 blacks together in the left terminal are neutral rather than live.

Assuming this is correct, extending that with T&E will only be totals of 2 wires for switched live, 3 wires for neutral and 2, 3, or maximum of 4 wires for earth.

It's not nasty as such, what you have was a very common way of installing lighting circuits and, if what I see on this forum is correct, still used in some areas in recent times.

Mark the ssingle cable securely (Will be obvious if the 2 blacks are twisted together) to avoid problems when reconnecting.

 

[terryplumb]

You need to do some testing to establish which are line and which are neutral. And I would strongly suggest that you check out the earth continuity as well.

 

[Sureitsoff?]

you could just use a junc box screwed to the joist in a suitable position and take a feed to the new light position from it

 

[andy_nufc]

This all seems complicated and too much wire. Wouldn't it be better to put one of these in the loft at the location of the existing rose, and then simply output a single T+E from this to the position of the new rose?

 

[Murdochcat]

Thanks for the response and thanks for the advice.

I should pull the wires out of the ceiling rose to see what I have, but I don't appear to have 3 x T&E, it looks like I have 2 x single core cables (maybe they do have an E, but cut back) and then another single core + earth.

I completely agree, it is nasty which i why I stopped and thought I needed to figure this out.

And no, unfortunately, the existing wiring is tight there is no slack.

Thanks.

There may be an earth there but is it connected back to the consumer unit? That wiring appears to be late 1960's / early 1970's

 

[pdbennett]

It's a 60's house so this particular wiring will be from that time.

Thank you all so much for all the advice. You have been very helpful.

I will confirm L and N and then I think the most simple solution would be to use the junction box.

 

[ericmark]

1966 the rules changed, before that earths not required for ceiling lights, after that they were, so hope after 1966.

 

[pdbennett]

I think you have quite correctly assessed the situation: 3 single cables and at least one but possibly 2 or all 3 also include an earth. However I'd make a guess the 2 blacks together in the left terminal are neutral rather than live.

Assuming this is correct, extending that with T&E will only be totals of 2 wires for switched live, 3 wires for neutral and 2, 3, or maximum of 4 wires for earth.

It's not nasty as such, what you have was a very common way of installing lighting circuits and, if what I see on this forum is correct, still used in some areas in recent times.

Mark the ssingle cable securely (Will be obvious if the 2 blacks are twisted together) to avoid problems when reconnecting.

So yes, you are correct. The two cables are actually N and not L. It appears all of my lights are wired this way. My L is actually wired into the N terminal and N is wired into L.

I’ve extended with a junction box but I wasn’t sure whether I should have wired the new T&E up “correctly” ( ie L to L etc ) or “backwards” as it is already.

Thanks.

 

[Sureitsoff?]

I would have wired it such that the new cable presents live and neutral on the correct colours.

 

[pdbennett]

Great thanks

 

[ebee]

I am wondering why L & N idents are transposed. Is it possible an error was made initially by the person connecting at the origin in the first instance or perhaps some subsequent disconnect/reconnect by themselves or another or some alternative broadly similar reason?

Mind you I did once attend a report of a 2` fluorescent in a pantry glowing a bit (strobe effect) when OFF and was noticed only when the door was closed.
You have guessed it - some Turnip Head had connected the switch into the N conductor instead of the Line.
I left it unfixed seeing as the customer had asked me for a house rewire estimate but had someone else rewire it.
When I mentioned this I got the "Oh they were cheaper" and then I asked why they did not get them to troubleshoot it they replied "We tried several but they never got back to us and we know that you are more reliable" Well no thanks not on that occasion I would not be thank you very much.
Sadly it is by no means the only time that I have been asked to repair a cheaper competitor`s absolute cock up. Cheeky gits!

I have never set out to be the cheapest or the dearest. I give what I consider a fair price both to myself and my customer. I would never engage in a race to the bottom or pile it on if I think a customer might accept it.
I worked almost exclusively by recommendation both from trade and customers contacts.
I someone has no particular recommendations to fall back on then I suggest they consider asking for a few different estimates (even paid for estimates - it`s only fair) then consider excluding both the highest and lowest. From the remainder work out the average (naughty word) and look initially at those around the band of say within plus or minus 10% but possibly open that band up further then look at all of them and decide who you guess will be the one you have most confidence in.

I consider this to be a (very slightly) scientific way of getting some kind of answer if you have no other to fall back on.
Obviously it would be unfair to ask 20 different tradesmen all to give you a free estimate of a full rewire but they might be prepared to give you time of a phone call or pop in when passing sort of free of charge thing or very cheap.
If you upfront you having a few estimates and accordingly willing to pay they might even deduct it once the job is done and nobody in the circle of events is offended.