National identity cards

[sooey]

Now that we are leaving The EU behind do we need these to help control immigration?
One of the questions asked of any job applicant these days is do you have a right to live and work in the UK. Perhaps national I.D cards would help with that as well as helping to identify illegal immigrants and unscrupulous bosses who employ(exploit) them.
Though I've always been against having them imposed upon us, I am beginning to think that they would be a good idea in the current state of the world.
They would have to be pretty forgery resistant or they would be useless, maybe incorporate a persons dna? I don't know, but hopefully that would be possible.
It would mean sacrifices against our civil liberties but that may be a price we have to pay to try to prevent the country being completely swamped.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Surely we already have I.D. cards - driving licence, British passport, N.I. number, utility bills.

Do illegal immigrants have these?

 

[HawkEye244]

Orwells 1984

http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

1984 is possibly the definitive dystopian novel, set in a world beyond our imagining. A world where totalitarianism really is total, all power split into three roughly equal groups--Eastasia, Eurasia, and Oceania. 1984 is set in Oceania, which includes the United Kingdom, where the story is set, known as Airstrip One.

Winston Smith is a middle-aged, unhealthy character, based loosely on Orwell's own frail body, an underling of the ruling oligarchy, The Party. The Party has taken early 20th century totalitarianism to new depths, with each person subjected to 24 hour surveillance, where people's very thoughts are controlled to ensure purity of the oligarchical system in place. Figurehead of the system is the omnipresent and omnipotent Big Brother.

 

[Himaginn]

I see sooey is basing his ideas on his guesswork again:

Foreign nationals from outside the European Union, however, continue to require an ID card for use as a biometric residence permit under the provisions of the UK Borders Act 2007 and the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006

I expect that this will apply also to EU citizens after Brexit.

They don't seem to have worked well in the past. But there's always sooey's version of utopia.

In addition

Belgium has introduced the Electronic identity card or eID card from 2004 and by 2012 every citizen in Belgium must have an e-ID card for identity purposes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
That turned out to be a bit pointless when preventing terrorist offences.

Also:

National identity cards are issued to their citizens by the governments of all European Union member states except Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom, and also by Liechtenstein and Switzerland (the latter not formally part of the EEA).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

 

[sooey]

I see sooey is basing his ideas on his guesswork again:

Yeah I'm guessing that maybe, just maybe, now that the need for immigration control has shown itself to be such an important issue to the electorate our politicians might now start to take it a little more seriously.
And if our politicians ever get serious about actually doing it, it would have to be combined with a much firmer repatriation policy towards illegals.
Obviously there are many different aspects to that, secure national identity cards may be one of them. We don't have such a thing at the moment and I'm wondering if such a thing would be possible, or desirable given that they would certainly be a big step on the road to the big brother scenario hawkeye pointed out.

 

[Himaginn]

I see sooey is basing his ideas on his guesswork again:

Yeah I'm guessing that maybe, just maybe, now that the need for immigration control has shown itself to be such an important issue to the electorate our politicians might now start to take it a little more seriously.

You're guessing (again) that it wasn't taken seriously before.

And if our politicians ever get serious about actually doing it, it would have to be combined with a much firmer repatriation policy towards illegals.

There an estimated 1,000,000 illegal immigrants in UK. That, of course does not include EU nationals.
So the repatriation rate has been about .05% per year.
Moreover, of all those arrested for anything, only about 1% are recognised as illegals.
When the EU nationals may also be included, that'll be double the amount of work, at least for the border control.
Of course this will be paid for by the £350M savings.
Then when the 'jungle' is in Dover, there'll be a fair bit more work.

Obviously there are many different aspects to that, secure national identity cards may be one of them. We don't have such a thing at the moment and I'm wondering if such a thing would be possible, or desirable given that they would certainly be a big step on the road to the big brother scenario hawkeye pointed out.

Where have you been for the last 15 years?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006

The Brexiteers were happy to sacrifice UK economy to keep out immigrants. They were happy to sacrifice personal sovereignty to keep out immigrants. They were happy to sacrifice the United Kingdom to keep out immigrants.
Now you want to sacrifice civil liberties to keep out immigrants.
How far are you prepared to go to keep out immigrants?

 

[DRM]

I bet Merkel now wishes she had sacrificed her immigration policy a little when Cameron went to her cap in hand begging for something tangible that he could bring back and wave at the population of this country.

 

[sooey]

You're guessing (again) that it wasn't taken seriously before.

I suppose you think that the likes of Blair took it seriously.

The Brexiteers were happy to sacrifice UK economy to keep out immigrants.

Whose guessing now.

They were happy to sacrifice personal sovereignty to keep out immigrants.

Not with you on that one.

Now you want to sacrifice civil liberties to keep out immigrants

I have not said I wanted to, but I am thinking that it would be necessary and I'm posing the question of whether people would now be prepared to do that.
Probably not at the moment obviously, but I think that will change in years to come.

How far are you prepared to go to keep out immigrants?

No one as far as I know is saying that all immigration should be stopped, but it needs to be controlled. How far people will be prepared to go to do that is something that I think will change. As the effects off mass immigration become more and more visible,

 

[transam]

In the next few years (?) all countries in the EU will have to take more & more extreme (?) measures to curb immigration unless they do

there will be trouble ahead. Total chaos.

The Eastern European countries are not going to stand for it .

The E.U will fall apart it is just a question of time

 

[sooey]

In the next few years (?) all countries in the EU will have to take more & more extreme (?) measures to curb immigration unless they do

there will be trouble ahead. Total chaos.

The Eastern European countries are not going to stand for it .

The E.U will fall apart it is just a question of time

Add in the loss of all the money we've been putting in and it's not looking good.
That's why the Eurocrats are squealing so loudly.

 

[Himaginn]

They were happy to sacrifice personal sovereignty to keep out immigrants.

Not with you on that one.

The ability of UK citizens to live and work anywhere in UK.
The ability to move freely within EU.
The retention of civil liberties.
The avoidance of far too much data on governmental databases and the potential for loss of data. (Remember the loss of 25,000,000 personnel records by HM Revenue & Customs.)

A link to loss of personal data by UK governmental sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_government_data_losses

 

[Himaginn]

How far are you prepared to go to keep out immigrants?

No one as far as I know is saying that all immigration should be stopped, but it needs to be controlled. How far people will be prepared to go to do that is something that I think will change. As the effects off mass immigration become more and more visible,

And when the Brexiteers have achieved the total control that they seek, what's the next step?
Repatriation of those immigrants that are settled in UK?
Repatriation of those immigrants when they fall below a certain usefulness despite being settled in UK, with families, social ties?

We've already seem examples of increased racist attacks, following the referendum. The Brexiteers have demonstrated that winning the referendum was not enough.
You've already demonstrated that Brexit is not sufficient. You want to go further.

 

[sooey]

The ability of UK citizens to live and work anywhere in UK.

I wasn't aware that brexit meant the break up of the UK.

The ability to move freely within EU.

What!! Are you saying we'll all now be stopped from visiting EU countries and spending our money in them?

The retention of civil liberties.

Do you mean the kind of civil liberties that stop us from deporting murderers, rapists etc. because it will infringe their human rights?

The avoidance of far too much data on governmental databases and the potential for loss of data. (Remember the loss of 25,000,000 personnel records by HM Revenue & Customs.)

Who is the judge of what is "far too much data"?

 

[sooey]

We've already seem examples of increased racist attacks, following the referendum. The Brexiteers have demonstrated that winning the referendum was not enough.

So it was the "Brexiteers" as you call them who were responsible for some recent deplorable behaviour by a very small percentage of the population? There were over 17 million "Brexiteers". If they were all to kick off as a group you'd fcking know about it.

You've already demonstrated that Brexit is not sufficient. You want to go further.

Brexit was all about regaining the ability to go further, through setting our own rules, including those governing immigration. If would be immigrants don't like those rules in the future, they are not compelled to come here.

 

[JohnD]

I wasn't aware that brexit meant the break up of the UK.

Seriously? Why weren't you listening?