new boiler cold radiators where does installers liability end

[stevemarl]

Hello.
I had an old gravity fed, conventional, central heating boiler which had started to seep water from the heat exchanger, otherwise the system worked perfectly (no leaks, no air locks) In June I had a company come to quote, checked the system as it stood, said it would be no problem and quoted £4300 which seemed reasonable (cf BG`s £5400) Initial experience was fine, they were punctual, engineers polite and professional. The only problem is they`ve never been able to get the new system to work. They`ve had various theories as to why this is, 1st one of the new motorised valves was faulty, then various attempts to clear an air lock, flushing, bleeding. It will clear after flushing etc and work fine all night but next morning... stone cold. They now blame "poor piping; leaking valves" (If so, surely they should have advised me of such beforehand and quoted accordingly - not used it as an excuse to walk away). In fact "leaking valves" should have been replaced with TRVs anyway to comply with building regs. I should point out that the system worked perfectly prior to their install AND absolutely NO water is lost from the system there are NO leaks. They did suggest sealing the system, pressurised tank etc but wanted £500 to fit with no guararantee that it would even help.
They`ve been back a couple of times, but that`s it, seems they`ve now washed their hands of it: they`re happy they fitted the boiler OK, if the system doesn`t actually work that`s not their problem. So I`m £4300 down and facing a winter with no heating... Oh , and they`ve now trying to bill me £102 for the 3rd visit, (of 4 when they again DIDN`T fix the heating) and are threatening "further action" for non-payment. It seems they have no qualms about leaving a pensioner with no heating and substantially out of pocket - in fact they want another £100 for their troubles. I`ve pretty much written this off now, I grew up without central heating, I can get by with fires etc I don`t know how I can resolve this. Not strictly relevant but my partner had a ruptured aortic aneurism while this was going on, 7 hours open heart surgery, 5 days in an induced coma, and all the while I`ve got this **** at the back of my mind
If it were my company I would be absolutely ashamed.
Any thoughts?

 

[stevemarl]

On the plus side I`m now £800 in credit with Octopus...
BTW it`s a Worcester Bosch greenstar Ri18, 4 rads downstairs, 4 upstairs

 

[martygturner]

did they flush the old system prior to fitting the new boiler ?

 

[stevemarl]

yes.

 

[MeldrewsMate]

Have you retained the old feed and expansion tank?
In the days of gravity hot water the pump was usually on the return side. Furthermore the vent was located at the top cylinder port and the cold fill at the bottom; the cold fill would usually clog over a long period, or severely restrict the cold fill. This would not be noticed while the system was unmolested, however it would cause problems after any draining of the system.

Do you still have the cold fill tee'd into the lower coil connection of the hot water cylinder? If so will a 'fridge magnet stick to the copper pipework at that point?

At this point I'm guessing that the new system is sucking air into the pipework, which is why it doesn't work the following morning, but let's wait for the result of the magnet test before making premature conclusions.

In your reply please include the following detail....
1. Hot water cylinder location - airing cupboard upstairs or loft mounted?
2. Location of the new pump?
3. What you meant by 'flushing'? Could it have been merely bleeding of the rads?

 

[stevemarl]

You must forgive me, I have NO understanding of how CH works - but sounds like you have a plausible fault they never thought of.
"vent was located at the top cylinder port and the cold fill at the bottom; the cold fill would usually clog over a long period, or severely restrict the cold fill. This would not be noticed while the system was unmolested, however it would cause problems after any draining of the system."
Not sure... is this the hot water cylinder? so I`m looking for a teed joint near the bottom? I`m guessing accumulation of iron oxides???

hot water cyl is in airing cupboard upstairs
new pump same position as old mid way up height of cylinder on wall
pretty certain they `claim` flushing but I didn`t watch them so who knows. assume they did.

edit:
if you mean the pipe from the hot water header down to the base of the hot water cylinder, that seems to have no ferrous content.
Can I take pictures of pipework ?
Don`t know if this helps but if I have 3 rads open, if I can get boiler to stay on, the system runs hot and quiet. If i open a 4th rad, the pipe above the pump starts making a cyclical `whooshing noise: 4-5 seconds whoosh, 4-5 secs quiet, repeat. Turn rad off, quiet again.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

So I`m £4300 down and facing a winter with no heating... Oh , and they`ve now trying to bill me £102 for the 3rd visit, (of 4 when they again DIDN`T fix the heating) and are threatening "further action" for non-payment.

How did you pay them, cash, credit card, debit card? Hopefully, credit card, and you can claim the cost back, enough to get a proper engineer in.

It sounds as if they are just boiler installers, who throw boilers on walls, box shifters, rather than heating engineers. Leaving you with a none working system, is unforgivable.

 

[Alec_t]

If i open a 4th rad, the pipe above the pump starts making a cyclical `whooshing noise: 4-5 seconds whoosh, 4-5 secs quiet, repeat. Turn rad off, quiet again.

Sounds as though there could still be some air circulating in the pipes.
Try reducing the pump speed.

 

[stevemarl]

How did you pay them, cash, credit card, debit card? Hopefully, credit card, and you can claim the cost back, enough to get a proper engineer in.

It sounds as if they are just boiler installers, who throw boilers on walls, box shifters, rather than heating engineers. Leaving you with a none working system, is unforgivable.

Credit card I wish! Sadly, bank transfer. Billing me for attending and threatening "further action" for nonpayment is the final straw

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Sadly, bank transfer.

Oh dear, was that them insisting on a bank transfer for payment?

 

[Elsa TLC]

Just good will would have been decent of them to get you working.

However looking at the pictures. There are two air nipples teed in. Thus suggests to me thst air may have been an historic problem with this system. You say that the system worked with old boiler.

This is a common problem and story ive heard many a time and dealt with.

I think its an air lock and Id have a guess thst they didn't clean the system very well.

Once air has been purged 100% then it will work. A problem that your old boiler would have also had.

Thats my theory....

Poor show from the installers. Post up your area and you might be lucky that someone on hete lives nearby and can help you out.

 

[Activ]

I am not a plumber.
In your position I'd call Trading Standards and also attempt to speak to someone at the Citizens Advice Bureau.
If your contract to install was clear then they have not fulfilled that Contract. Document the process in its entirety so you have an accurate record of events. You could take them through the Small Claims process but may be required to get a couple of quotes in to rectify the issue(s). Possibly engage one of them to rectify at your additional cost but bundled within the Claim.
You were pressured to pay despite the fault(s) being known and the fact they'd returned to rectify on more than one occasion implies they haven't completed the original Contract. Write to them formally stating your side of the Contract, payment and diary of events plus your willingness to give them 14 days to return and rectify or you will seek an alternative supplier and start legal proceedings without further Contact with them.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

You were pressured to pay despite the fault(s) being known and the fact they'd returned to rectify on more than one occasion implies they haven't completed the original Contract. Write to them formally stating your side of the Contract, payment and diary of events plus your willingness to give them 14 days to return and rectify or you will seek an alternative supplier and start legal proceedings without further Contact with them.

Name and shame the company on here too!

 

[Activ]

Name and shame the company on here too!

I'd recommend holding off on the naming and shaming until your solution, case and Contract are satisfied.

 

[accelerator]

Things to do:

- Continue to get advice from this forum.

- Think about getting a different professional in to see if they can diagnose the fault. If they give you a reasonable quote to fix it, consider doing that. There's no point getting the same people back who can't fix it.

- Check your original contract, as you may need to deal with the original company according to it. If the new professional can fix it, then that can be used here, as you can say that someone else could fix it and they should have been able to.