New Boiler, New System, or Neither?

[chuckalicious]

Just moved into my new home (new as in I just bought it). It's a Victorian terraced house which has 10 radiators.

Each radiator has what I believe are called microbore pipes and twin return valves, ie the "in" and "out" pipes are connected to the main valve on one side of the radiator and no valve at the other end. The pipes are very thin copper, I assume 8mm. The radiator valves also have a little cap covering a smaller valve which I believe is to allow the system to be balanced.

The boiler is an old (I think older than me), Glow-Worm 65-80 (that's all it says, nothing else on the case). The system works fine, all radiators are warm, although they do gargle a little when the system is on, sounding as if the pump is pushing the water through every few minutes.

My problem is that running the system for about 6 hours a day (2 in the morning and 4 at night) is costing me about £110 a month in gas. I'm assuming the system isn't very efficient....

Right now I'm looking to get some people round to give me quotes on a new boiler. I cannot, in any way shape or form, afford a complete new system (ie new pipes, rads and boiler). So what I'd like to know is, what is my best port of call?

Should I:

a) get the system cleaned (flushed and inhibited) and balanced and leave it at that
b) get a new boiler for a like for like replacement, and just keep the existing kit
c) something else

The house I'm in has 3 floors, is reasonably well insulated for a house of it's age, in that it has double glazed windows (thin double glazed, but double glazed none the less), fibre glass insulation under the ground floor flooring and in the loft (albeit old insulation) and I have done my best to fill in most of the gaps in the windows which were letting in cold air.

Also, a more general question, which might aid in cutting costs: there are about 4 rooms in the house which we don't use very often, and so they don't need to be as warm as the other rooms, but I had been warned against letting rooms in old houses stay cold, due to condensation etc. Because of the twin valve things on the radiators, and them not being thermostatic, should I leave them all fully open or is it safe to close some of the valves over a little and will that still allow a full flow of water to the rest of the system (as you can guess I have no idea who these old systems work )

Thanks in advance folks

 

[JohnD]

If you do not have a lot of money:

£100 on insulation and draught proofing will probably save you more in fuel that £1000 on a boiler. Also remember to close the internal doors when you are using heating.

You can probably give it a chemical clean, flush and refill with inhibitor yourself for less than £50 plus a weekend of pottering about with spanners and pipes.

You can balance it yourself.

Fitting TRVs will mean a drain-down, if I were you I would leave this until summer when you can have the heating off while you do it (or pay someone else if you have more money than time).

If it is working you are not obliged to replace it.

Condensation is generally caused by insufficient ventilation (and a few user errors like leaving wet washing about the house or even draped over radiators, and failing to use extractor fans in the bathroom). It is not generally caused by leaving unoccupied rooms cool.

 

[chuckalicious]

Thanks for the quick reply.

So even though it's a very old boiler, and me having about £1300 to spend on a new boiler, you think I'd be better off not getting one?

 

[JohnD]

Come back when you're upgraded the insulation and draughtproofing and cleaned the system, and we'll think about it again.

All these things need doing whether you buy a new boiler or not.

An old boiler is probably very simple and (if the system is kept clean) may not go wrong as often or as expensively as a new one. Apart from the pump and control valve your system has few moving parts that wear out. The steel radiators will corrode internally if you do not keep the system clean, and the sediment produced from corrosion will cause blockages, if you do not keep it clean.

Running costs will be a bit less with a more efficient new system, but you will save more at lower cost by improving insulation.

 

[JohnD]

p.s. I should have said:

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[stem]

Your bill sounds about right for the type and size of property you describe. Three floors and 10 rads is bigger than your average property. That's a lot of solid uninsulated wall even if it's a terrace, and probably also a big volume, especially if your house has high ceilings.

According to SEDBUK (calculation of boiler efficencies) your Glow Worm 65-80 boiler is at least 21 years old (the last one was made in 1985) and it's rated as 65% efficient. This means that for every £1 of gas you spend 65p is converted to heat and 35p goes out the flue.

Therefore for £110 you are getting £71:50 of heat and £38.50 is lost.

New condensing boilers are 80-90% efficient, so I reckon if you went for one it should reduce your £110 monthly bill by about £25, and you'd be doing your bit for the environment.

 

[chuckalicious]

Thanks again for all the quick replies.

I am aware that putting some new insulation under the floor would be a good idea, however reinsulating the loft means I might have to improve air flow in the roof. I know old roofs rely on some air flow from the house in order to stop condensation, and I don't want to cause other problems by fixing one....

But either way I'd still be interested in people's views of the microbore piping, the twin valve radiator valves, and what my best option is....

I have fitted draught excluders where I can, blocked up chimneys, closed gaps in windows etc.

Basically I want to know whether it's worth getting a new boiler or if I'll only be saving a tiny amount per month....

Thanks again folks

 

[stem]

Basically I want to know whether it's worth getting a new boiler or if I'll only be saving a tiny amount per month....

I've just worked it out for you. You should save about £25 per month.

 

[chuckalicious]

Basically I want to know whether it's worth getting a new boiler or if I'll only be saving a tiny amount per month....

I've just worked it out for you. You should save about £25 per month.

I know And thanks But does saving £25 per month warrant spending >£1000 on a new boiler.....

 

[htgeng]

There is nothing wrong with microbore as long as it has been maintained and isn't sludged up. Do the rooms heat up ok and are you happy? If so don't bother replacing the pipework and rads - just get a decent A+ rated boiler asap.

I did a similar upgrade to a house a couple of weeks ago. It had upstairs and downstairs manifolds for rads. With a new boiler, the house gets really warm and cosy. The running costs have been kept low with 98% efficient boiler and a weather compensation system.

 

[adwt2004]

well for a 25 a month saving versus an immediate 1000 payout for a boiler it would take you 40 months to get your money back. Not accounting for interest you'd make not spending it plus all usual goverment tax crap.

Above is a crude way of working it out and considering that new boilers don't last very long unless you spend a lot more than a 1000 (all in) it would be up to you whether it is worth it or not.

consider that the environment would be a better place if you did though. Well according to the goverment anyway. Don't see ministers catching a bus to work though do you? They still use their range rover vogues with 4litre of might just so they can cope with the demands of the school and work run...

Johnd may a good point, try the insulation first, it'll be cheaper and try it for a few months to see if your bills decrease. switch radiators off in rooms not used and keep doors shut. All common sense.

 

[chuckalicious]

Yes, the rooms do heat up, but they take a while (although I assume that's the case with most old places with high ceilings).

I imagine it's too hard to say but do you think £1300 would get me a new boiler installed with the system flushed out?

 

[htgeng]

I imagine it's too hard to say but do you think £1300 would get me a new boiler installed with the system flushed out?

No, not for a quality boiler and have it installed properly. Get some local people out to quote for you. Another grand wouldnt be unreasonable for a a decent installation. Don't forget Gordon Browns lovely vat too. You might want to give it couple of months into the new year as everyone is rushed off their feet doing breakdowns or on holiday.

 

[stem]

That has to be your decision. It'll take you about 3.5 years to get your money back, (assuming the figure you quote per month is spread over the whole year, ie 12 months x £110 and not just the months heating is required) but the savings will continue on afterwards of course.

Regarding the rads I don't think you can get thermostatic valves for the microbore systems where the flow and return enter through the same end. However, if your radiator sizes are calculated well, a single room thermostat can often work the system well so that rooms do not become overheated and so waste energy. This does not take into account if some rooms are warmed by the sun etc., or if you specifically require some rooms to be cooler. Your experience of how the system works will tell you this. If some rooms are hotter than you would like for example.

The view of microbore is subjective. A properly designed and installed system can work as well as any type. Blocking of the pipes is not uncommon. However, If your system is clean and contains corrosion inhibitor you shouldn't have a problem. On the plus side the small pipe means there's not a lot of water in the system so it tends to heat up quite quickly. You could consider just changing the pipework at the radiators to have the flow at one end and the return at the other and add radiator thermostats. If your rooms are not overheating though, you probably won't save much here.

Insulation is your best saving. It keeps the heat in the house so you don't have to keep replacing it. Unfortunately for you, heat rises, so more is lost through the roof (20%) than the floor (10%). And even more through the walls (50%) See the link below.

http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/insulation.htm

 

[physiologist]

have u thought about checking if all pipes under the floor are well insulated? Are the radiators convector i.e do they have a zig-zaggy metal behind them?

also dont forget your gas bill includes any gas you use for cooking, gas fires etc..

point to note - if your going to replace an old gravity fed system with a new combi system, your gas bill may not go down at all, because you'll use more gas (i.e. every time the tap is opened) than you would normally have done. hence this could cancel out the savings you make by having a more efficient boiler.

there also other things you could do (preferably when you were doing the house up):

- such as using cloud 9 underlay under the carpet and get a thicker warmer carpet - i've noticed in my house the rooms with cloud 9 not only feel nice to walk on, but are also warmer.

- you could also have used foam/ thick wallpaper on walls to keep these warm, you can use polystyriene cieling tiles on the cieling

you may also want to reconsider how you set the timing in your house, if necessary get a better timer with more on/ off settings, so that when you heat the house up it doesn't get too hot because your having it on for 4 hours contantly. maybe if you had it on for an hour then off for an hour then on again etc... room thermostats may be an alternative.

if i think of anything else i'll add it on

cheers