New installation has certificates but dangerous!?

[ericjones]

Recently moved into a new house, had the central heating checked out this morning because we couldn't get hot water without the heating coming on too. Not sure if I have all the terminology right, but if I remember correctly this is what happened.

The (Gas Safe registered) engineers took a quick look at the system and declared it unsafe and have turned everything off. The boiler installation itself is not as-per instructions or building regs, e.g. discharge pipe is onto garage floor. Wiring to the high presure hot water cylinder in the loft is a complete mess of cables and unsafe, again discharge pipe is to a bucket in the loft - not external. No thermostat in cylinder.

But, we have

• a Building Regulations Compliance certificate from Corgi dated 14th April this year, for the boiler installation
• a Gas Safety Inspection certificate from the same installer, for testing the same boiler but dated 16th March this year - a month earlier
• a Certificate of Completed Work from the District Council, which states that the extension (in which the boiler and the hot water cylinder in the loft both reside) complies with building regulations - this was from an inspection on 23 March this year, between the Gas Safety Inspection and the Boiler Installation.

Does this make any sense to anyone? The engineers showed me round the system this morning and it is obvious even to me that the whole thing is unsafe, yet here is all this paperwork saying it's fine.

We have explained all this to our solicitor from the house move, passed him copies of the paperwork and are getting a report of all the problems from the engineers.

How should we proceed? We can't have any hot water until we pay to get this sorted out, but don't want to pay for it ourselves because we have all this paperwork that says we have a sound installation so someone else is surely responsible for fixing this?

Thanks in advance for any help. Trying not to sound desperate....

 

[Agile]

Sorting it out is likely to be a very minor cost, perhaps £200-£300 if someone like me was involved.

Unfortunately you want to take a holier than though attitude and involve solicitors ( at £300 per hour ) and everyone else who have no input to actually solving the problems.

Nor do I agree that the discharge pipe to the garage floor is wrong as thats tantamount to being outside as its not a habitable room.

Its up to you what you do as its your house but all the "jobs for boys" will turn a £300 correction job" into £5000 within a couple of weeks.

Here all the things you can do:-

Complain about your solicitor to the Law Society.

Complain about the local Building Control to the Local Ombudsman.

Sue the vendor for selling a house with a defective installation.

Sue the builder.

Sue the plumbing subcontractor.

Complain to Building Control that the installer was not qualified to install unvented cylinders.

Complain to CORGI ( whose functions are now taken over by Gas Safe register ).

Complain to your local MP ( as thats free ).

Complain to the Equality Commissioner if the installer was non-white.

Complain to BBC Watchdog.

The list goes on.........................

OR

you could just pay someone local to sort out the genuine defects in the installation.

The choice is yours!

Tony

 

[gas4you]

Unfortunately you want to take a holier than though attitude

Pot, kettle and black spring to mind here

 

[D_Hailsham]

Did you have a survey done on the house - apart from the one done on behalf of the building society to value the property?

Did you have an independent survey carried out by a qualified heating engineer before purchasing the house?

If the answer to both of those is 'no', then you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[doitall]

* a Building Regulations Compliance certificate from Corgi dated 14th April this year, for the boiler installation
* a Gas Safety Inspection certificate from the same installer, for testing the same boiler but dated 16th March this year - a month earlier
* a Certificate of Completed Work from the District Council, which states that the extension (in which the boiler and the hot water cylinder in the loft both reside) complies with building regulations - this was from an inspection on 23 March this year, between the Gas Safety Inspection and the Boiler Installation.

I have said all along that GWN, is like a garage issuing MOTs over the phone, both stupid and dangerous. Corgi were aware of this problem and said they would deal with any problems.

Agile's sarcastic reply is just what you should do, sue Corgi, the Council, The builder and the plumber if necessary.

 

[D_Hailsham]

Agile's sarcastic reply is just what you should do, sue Corgi, the Council, The builder and the plumber if necessary.

But the OP has no contractual relationship with Corgi, Council, builder or plumber, they were instructed by the vendor or his agent. So the OP cannot sue any of them.

 

[heytesto]

I carried out corrective work in a similar certificated system in a residential care home for the very severely disabled.
Problems included: 6 bar expansion vessel oand 4 bar prv on the heating, open and incorrect wiring meaning the Icos would fire on occasions without the pump, etc.
Original installers had been back many times over 18 months.

At the owners request, I supplied photos and a full report for the ownwer to pursue. I believe they got precisely nowhere.

 

[fatplumber]

I used to whinge about CORGI annual checks but now I don't. Random checking is going to be the only way that self notification can work.

ericjones If you feel that this notification was wrong then you must contact the registering bodies. CORGI if pre April and building control. If you think the faults to be florrid enough then go and bang on a desk until you get a response. I think that your solicitor cannot be at fault since he is bound to look at the written evidence.

If we do not report then nothing will change.

 

[bengasman]

The certificates by themselves mean less than nothing as they are only the result of forms going from one desk to another; nothing is verified. A bit like the crime number issued after you have been robbed.

If you have a pre-sale survey that says all is fine, whoever issued that, will have to pay for repairs. If you didn't bother to have your investment checked before forking out x-hundred thousand pounds; well, basically, you are stuffed.

You could hold the lawyers responsible, but they have probably covered themselves against that option in the paperwork you signed.

You can try suing the vendor, but he will point at the certificates as proof he has discharged his responsibility.

 

[ericjones]

Unfortunately you want to take a holier than though attitude and involve solicitors ( at £300 per hour ) and everyone else who have no input to actually solving the problems.

Um... ok. I've obviously hit a nerve? I do apologise.

Actually our solicitor is already involved (as I noted) because we have just moved house. We have already paid him for the conveyancing, and this is included as it is related to the house sale. I'm not sure who "everyone else" is, the only other people involved are the engineers who will fix the problems.

Maybe we were quick to involve the solicitor, but this was at the engineers suggestion, and after already have the solicitor enquire with the vendor after they took (i.e. stole) over a £1000 worth of fixtures and fittings that were included in the sale and left a skip-worth of rubbish in the house.

Nor do I agree that the discharge pipe to the garage floor is wrong as thats tantamount to being outside as its not a habitable room.

Ok fair enough. You wouldn't know, as I didn't say, but the garage is integral with the house, next to the kitchen and has a utility area under the boiler so the discharge would spray over the back of the fridge freezer which doesn't sound good to me.

Its up to you what you do as its your house but all the "jobs for boys" will turn a £300 correction job" into £5000 within a couple of weeks.

Ok, great £300 sounds good to me, not sure where £5000 comes from.

Complain about your solicitor to the Law Society.

Why would I want to do that?

Complain about the local Building Control to the Local Ombudsman.
Complain to CORGI ( whose functions are now taken over by Gas Safe register ).

These sound reasonable to me. The whole point of this system is to stop dangerous and illegal installations, yet that is what we've been left with. I thought people on this forum would also be interested in stopping that. If you yourself are Gas Safe registered and legit, then others signing off certificates on illegal installations makes a mockery of the whole system that you pay to be a part of.

I'm not worried about suing anybody for money, especially if it is only £300 to correct as you suggest, but I would want to report anybody for working illegally before they cause real trouble and injure somebody.

...silly suggestions snipped...

you could just pay someone local to sort out the genuine defects in the installation.

Yes, that is what we'll do obviously, in addition to reporting any illegal behaviour by others.

For the record, I now have a list of the faults from our engineers rather than my own recollections. If anyone cares they are:
Pressurized hot water cylinder in loft:

• Heating motorized valve locked in open position
• Incorrect wiring to programmer.
• Wiring center cover left off, exposing live terminals.
• Hot water thermostat on Ariston pressurized hot water cylinder missing
• Electric immersion (13 amp) wired into wiring center (3 amp). Intended to operate as a thermostat? Does not work
• No balancing valve on cylinder
• No automatic air vent
• No pipe insulation
• No extra support on roof joists
• Discharge valve from pressure reducing valve disconnected from tundish, terminates in a bucket.
• Discharge pipe from cylinder terminates at high level under gutter.

Boiler in integral garage:

• Boiler discharges at low level in the garage
• No frost thermostat installed
• Pipework not insulated
• Boiler incorrectly wired.
• Benchmark book not filled in, a requirement for registering with Corgi.

Actual central heating system

• No system by-pass and no room thermostat to comply with the manufacturers instructions and building regs.

Thanks for your response.

 

[ericjones]

Oh dear, only just saw everyone elses replies. Thank you all. Was too busy replying to Agile!

Pot, kettle and black spring to mind here

Thank you

Did you have a survey done on the house - apart from the one done on behalf of the building society to value the property?

Yes, a full structural survey.

Did you have an independent survey carried out by a qualified heating engineer before purchasing the house?

Unfortunately no. Wish we had, obviously.

At the owners request, I supplied photos and a full report for the ownwer to pursue. I believe they got precisely nowhere.

I believe this is where we'll get too, but just wanted to get some "war stories" such as this to confirm. Thanks!

I have contacted Corgi, with the basic story, and they have told me to contact Gas Safe, even though the work was done under Corgi all cases now transferred to Gas Safe. I am waiting to hear back from Gas Safe.

 

[bengasman]

Things to concentrate on as they are easiest to prove beyond doubt:

Benchmark not filled out and signed = (technically) boiler unsafe (AR) and should be turned off.

Clear evidence of the electrical side of the system illegally installed.

Call Gas Safe Register, ask for Sam Green, mention only the above and ask for an inspection. GSR will get it sorted free of charge.

 

[heytesto]

I'll be very interested to know how all this turns out.

 

[ericjones]

Things to concentrate on as they are easiest to prove beyond doubt:

Thanks, this is the sort of thing we need

Benchmark not filled out and signed = (technically) boiler unsafe (AR) and should be turned off.

It is turned off now.

Clear evidence of the electrical side of the system illegally installed.

I have a letter from our engineers who inspected the system, and some photos of the wiring. Will this be sufficient evidence or do we need more?

Call Gas Safe Register, ask for Sam Green, mention only the above and ask for an inspection. GSR will get it sorted free of charge.

Brilliant thanks. Will do so and report back any findings. Unfortunately have to get on with some of my actual work now, will have to do as much as I can over lunch...

 

[Agile]

Now that you have listed all the defects it will clearly be much more than £300 to correct those which need work.

Whoever inspected was keen to make it look as bad as possible like saying the motor valve was locked open. It takes 1 second to reset that ( although it may be wrongly wired and not working anyway. ).

Most of the defects are with the unvented which Gas Safe will probably step back from.

The Building Control have got a lot to answer for when they passed the system. If the installer was genuinely qualified to fit unventeds and filled in the benchmark then they accept his certificate. If it was not filled in then I would say that they were negligent in passing it with so many defects. Sueing them is more complicated though as they will say they are protecting the local authority and have no duty of care towards you. As you pay for their services a court might disagree.

In spite of Hailsham's assertion that you could not sue the vendor, I would disagree with that. There is a recent law or procedure that the vendor confirms that everything is in good working order unless disclosed otherwise. The only problem is that a court would take into account that the vendor was a layman unable to know what was wrong. However, if he employed unregistered installers then I think most courts would find in your favour.

Your solicitor will advise on your chances of sueing the vendor. The normal procedure would be for your solicitor to write a letter before action to the vendor with a quote for putting it right and the vendor will usually try to agree a settlement to avoid having to risk paying your legal and court costs and getting a CCJ against him.

Tony