New wood floor *sigh*

[Glug]

It squeaks, it doesn't look level and the builder doesn't want to know. It's a new solid oak T&G floor.
Here goes: The back room has been extended. New joists were laid in the old room and in the new extension. On top of the joists hardboard was laid and the new floorboards fixed to the hardboard with a nail gun (I think. It made a small explosive noise, anyway).
The squeaking wasn't apparent until the dust sheets came up, by which time I'd paid my dues.
I guess it's what you'd call a floating floor. I had similar at a previous address and no probs.
In fact, in the original room the boards don't squeak. The problem is in the new extension part.
If you look at the floor at an angle, the individual boards don't seem to be flat, but seem to undulate, some with a slight curve in the middle as if the wood has expanded and the individual boards are fighting for space.
Were the boards not unpacked for long enough and allowed to "breathe"?
Or is there another possible reason, ie settlement, and will the boards have to come up? More expense. *Groan.*
Help much appreciated.

 

[lymmranger]

your explanation suggests that you do not have a floating floor at all...

if the oak floor was fitted to the joists then it is your only floor!

As no doubt the wooden floor specialists will tell you later, many builders will badly fit a wooden floor for you. Professional installers will fit it properly but work out more expensive than than the builder. Most customers choose the builder!

What sort of quality was your floor - there are some very nasty cheap imports around at the moment (they twist/warp and buckle soon after fitting).

Having said all that your builder is obligated to rectify any problems and you should a very "firm" conversation with him

 

[Glug]

Thanks for the info. The builder got someone (a mate) in to lay the floor -although the man was basically a carpenter he had laid floors before. I paid £31 per pack (1 sqm) for the flooring (reduced from £49). It's a complete run from the back wall of the old sitting room through to the extension.
The thing is that the floor only squeaks in the new extension part, not in the original room. It even squeaks when the cat walks on it!
Both rooms had new joists laid.
I am not sure what was laid over the joists, only that it was some kind of board. When I asked the builder if the oak boards had been nailed to the joists he replied that they were only nailed to the board.
Maybe this is the problem but I can't think why it should be in only one section unless there's been movement/settlement in the new build, which may explain the ripple effect.
I've tried the talc method but no joy.
I have some flooring people coming in to renovate another floor next month so I guess I should ask them to take a look. I dread them saying it will have to come up.
In the meantime, I owe the builder for other work so will dock some off that in lieu of a resolutiion. I'm pretty sore about it as he's done very well out of me. What gets me is that he's not even curious, just shrugs his shoulders. Ho hum.

 

[big-all]

is the old origional floor boards and the new chipboard sheets!!!

if so you should NOT nail into chipboard at an angle as it will flake

did he leave any expansion gap!!

has the floor lifted at all!!

 

[Spr0cket]

when was extension finished - is there a greatly different moisture content there vs the original sitting room ?

I think your trying to describe "cupping" of the boards, where the centre of the plank sits higher or lower than the t&G edges. Sounds like expansion, which would imply moisture absorption rather than shrinking through drying - especially given the damp weather of late.

I'm sure someone more versed will be along with other consideration soon, though I'd start with considering moisture levels - if the same boards have been layed continuously, why would they only display this in one of the areas?
Good news is that if only nailed to joist or an intermediate timber layer below, then a relift and relay, whilst costly for labour, is possible whereas adhesive troweled boards would be far more of a challenge.

 

[Spr0cket]

dbl post

 

[mac391]

I hate to say this to you but if your new oak flooring is cupping it will never return to its original shape. Quick Check... First find out which way it is cupping either by looking at ground level or a top tip is to sit a decent digital camera on the floor pointing along the grain and take plenty of snaps to enlarge and view on pc. If you look down the length of the floor and the outside edge of a plank is higher than the middle, it tells you that moisture has affected the plank from below. If the edges are lower than the middle then it's moisture from above. There are reasons too long to explain for this but it will tell you why the planks have distorted like they have. If you can tell me this i can explain further or put a good pic up here that shows it.

First of all, i suspect the builder has laid woodchip panel flooring as the sub-floor and used a power nailer to install it. Woodchip itself will sqweak regardless, even if you go over the top on nailing it down because it's structure is weak and it will still bounce when walked on. It's commonplace and cheap but still within the guidelines unfortunately and an earlier post was right to say it's not good for secret nailing hardwood on top. What general builders never know about and indeed some pro floor fitters, is a product called "building paper" it is a 3ply vapour proof paper that does 2 important things, 1, protects your new floor from rising moisture or damp and 2, it creates a cusion between your sub-floor and new floor and stops it sqweaking and costs only £1 per m/2. If this wasn't layed down before your new floor it may well be your problem.
I don't believe in acclimatisation. You will find on cheap packs of chinese flooring that it "must acclimatise". The only way to truly do this is to take out every piece of flooring and lay it out in the room/s to be fitted for at least 48 hrs. but on the pack it will says to leave it in the box!! doh.. Also new rendering, plaster and painting will leave high amounts of moisture in the room, you won't notice but your new oak floor will and expand accordingly. It's impractable but you should wait at least a month for plastering/painting and 2 months for rendering before the floor goes down. Check for an expansion gap around the room perimeter, you'll have to take the skirtings off to do it though. If your builder isn't too bothered about all this, youll have to find some evidence of it being his fault (which it clearly is) in order to get him back. just taking pics and showing him warped boards should be enough.
There's a wealth of info on this topic, just ask if you need any specifics

Andy

It squeaks, it doesn't look level and the builder doesn't want to know. It's a new solid oak T&G floor.
Here goes: The back room has been extended. New joists were laid in the old room and in the new extension. On top of the joists hardboard was laid and the new floorboards fixed to the hardboard with a nail gun (I think. It made a small explosive noise, anyway).
The squeaking wasn't apparent until the dust sheets came up, by which time I'd paid my dues.
I guess it's what you'd call a floating floor. I had similar at a previous address and no probs.
In fact, in the original room the boards don't squeak. The problem is in the new extension part.
If you look at the floor at an angle, the individual boards don't seem to be flat, but seem to undulate, some with a slight curve in the middle as if the wood has expanded and the individual boards are fighting for space.
Were the boards not unpacked for long enough and allowed to "breathe"?
Or is there another possible reason, ie settlement, and will the boards have to come up? More expense. *Groan.*
Help much appreciated.

 

[Glug]

Hi big all, Sp0cket and Andy,
Yes, it’s obviously cupping - a new word I’ve learned. And you’ve all given me a lot of food for thought.
All the old floorboards were taken up and all the joists replaced. Then boarding was laid on top of the joists. It looked like hardboard rather than chipboard to me, but what do I know??!?
There was about two months between the inside plastering and laying the new floorboards. The 3m opening on to the garden was not sealed with doors until just before the flooring was laid but, looking at my diary, it looks as though the weather was mostly dry during this period. There are no damp patches coming through the paintwork. Outside rendering was done after the inside plastering
BUT, going back a bit, there was a lot of rain when the floor was all up and some brickwork was done to support the joists. I remember sand (screed?) in between the lines of brickwork. The opening was still exposed to the elements at that stage so maybe it’s this prelim work nearest the opening that didn’t properly dry out.
Possibly having central heating on is drawing moisture up. The cupping is below the edges of the boards so your answers look to be spot on (unfortunately). The cupping isn’t huge but you can feel the edges of the boards when you walk over in just socks. There’s certainly an expansion gap of about 20mm where the boards meet the doors into the garden - the boards are laid parallel to the doors.
Builders paper, that sounds great and I agree it’s a pity that it’s not used. For the cost it’s such little trouble and it’s something I’ll certainly remember for the future.
I’ll see if I can take some pix, altho’ photography is not my best skill, ahem.
I have invited the builder to come and discuss a solution and encouraged him to do so by witholding some of the money, an important factor as this was the last chunk due and I’m guessing he’d never come back. It’s a big disappointment as so much of the refurb work was done so well. I know that nothing is ever perfect and some things can be overlooked. But by the very nature of the pesky squeaking, and the blinking cost to have the flooring done and maybe redone, leaving as is isn’t an option..
Anyway, thanks guys, for taking the trouble to explain. It’s really appreciated.