New Zealand

[JohnD]

So an apparently male athlete, who has been living their life up until about twenty years old as a male, who discovers later in life that they are really female, can transition to their 'real' sex, change their 'label' on their birth certificate, and if they qualify, with the appropriate tests, compete in female sports.

I believe so

but there is no reason to suppose that is relevant to Laurel's case.

It is interesting to reflect that in the example you postulate, the incorrectly categorised athlete would never have won any medals or championships in their original incorrect "man" classification, and would only have been a rather poor amateur.

For example, the woman world record 100m champion does not reach the standard of a good man club athlete.

The same is true of woman weightlifters, shot putters, rowers, tennis players, footballers etc.

 

[JohnD]

That is basically what I've been saying all along.

no it isn't.

If someone transgenders in order to compete in a women's category, would that be akin to cutting off a limb so that you could compete in the Paralympians category? If people are so desperate for a medal that they'll go that far, well I'm not bothered.
But it's a bit like finding a walking stick so you intentionally injure your leg just so you can use the stick.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

no it isn't.

Yes it is.

If you'd read the link I provided, you would see the evidence. Here it is in a fuller quote:

The Sex Spectrum
Yes, even sex is not constrained to a binary!
Intersex people are individuals born with physical sex markers (genitals, hormones, gonads, or chromosomes) that are neither clearly male nor female. The existence of intersex people shows that there are not just two sexes, and the lines between sexes can be blurry.
The sex spectrum is the concept of a continuum of people with sexes ranging from people with typical male physiology to people with typical female physiology.
https://www.usd.edu/diversity-and-i...r-diversity/safe-zone-training/spectrum-model
​

And there's plenty more:

Sex isn’t binary, and we should stop acting like it is
It’s time for legislation and education to reflect sex as a spectrum with unlimited options
https://massivesci.com/articles/sex-gender-intersex-transgender-identity-discrimination-title-ix/​

And if you're going to quote just one comment of mine, attempting to misrepresent my argument, I'll quote your comment showing how absurd you
were prepared to descend:

And that's why you support this convicted rapist

 

[JohnD]

Yes, even sex is not constrained to a binary!

Quoting this does not make it true.

"Transgendering so you can compete" is not the same as finding out you were incorrectly recorded as a baby.

And changing gender is not the same as changing sex.

There is not the slightest suggestion that Laurel is physically intersex or was mis-classified as male.

A sincere belief that you ought to be an owl does not change you into an owl.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I believe so
but there is no reason to suppose that is relevant to Laurel's case.

It's just as easily to suppose that is relevant in Laurel's case because we don't know, and we're never likely to know.
So it's sophistic to assume one argument is correct, when you have no evidence to support either argument.

It is interesting to reflect that in the example you postulate, the incorrectly categorised athlete would never have won any medals or championships in their original incorrect "man" classification, and would only have been a rather poor amateur.
For example, the woman world record 100m champion does not reach the standard of a good man club athlete.
The same is true of woman weightlifters, shot putters, rowers, tennis players, footballers etc.

I assume you are still referring to Laurel, in which case, that would appear to support the argument that a mistake was made in labelling her as a man at birth, and she has transitioned into a woman.
She has changed her sex.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Quoting this does not make it true.

I have posted numerous articles supporting my argument. It isn't just my opinion. It is the opinion of the medical and scientific world.

"Transgendering so you can compete" is not the same as finding out you were incorrectly recorded as a baby.

I did say long ago, that no-one could assume that an athlete would transition in order to compete in a different category.
The two issues are not necessarily connected.
But if an athlete does transition to the opposite sex, and they meet the criteria there is no reason why they should not compete in the relevant category.

 

[JohnD]

If you try to enter my cat into Owl competitions, you will rightly be told that she is a cat, no matter how strong your belief.

Reality trumps belief.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

And changing gender is not the same as changing sex.

No-one suggested it was.

There is not the slightest suggestion that Laurel is physically intersex or was mis-classified as male.

Nor is there the slightest suggestion that she isn't.
You can't assume one argument is correct on the absence of all and evidence.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

If you try to enter my cat into Owl competitions, you will rightly be told that she is a cat, no matter how strong your belief.

Reality trumps belief.

You'll be claiming that an ant is a giraffe next.

 

[JohnD]

It is the opinion of the medical and scientific world.

no it isn't.

What do you suppose happens when a man who considers his gender to be female turns up for a cervical smear?

or refuses to have a prostate check?

 

[fillyboy]

What do you suppose happens when a man who considers his gender to be female turns up for a cervical smear?

 

[JohnD]

Sex is fact. Gender is opinion. Fact trumps opinion.

 

[EFLImpudence]

You'll be claiming that an ant is a giraffe next.

Good grief - can you still not understand the point I was making about people using wrong words?


However, it is quite a good example for this thread:

The fact that I may call an ant a giraffe does not make the ant a giraffe, it is an ant no matter what I call it.

 

[Notch7]

The fact that I may call an ant a giraffe does not make the ant a giraffe, it is an ant no matter what I call it

What if it was an anti Semitic ant

 

[transam]

Mind you there was a case in a zoo recently ( prior lock down)

of one of them Komodo dragons that reproduced on its own

there is also some fish lives out Japan way it was on the blue planet dvd that can change sex from female to male they sort of morph into a male fish