New Zealand

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

There's a program on tonight on Channel 4 at 2200 hrs about a girl assigned the label of male at birth.

 

[JohnD]

you mean it's not a man who's decided he'd rather be a woman?

that's a rare, and refreshing, change.

And quite different from this thread.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

you mean it's not a man who's decided he'd rather be a woman?

that's a rare, and refreshing, change.

And quite different from this thread.

You don't know the genital anatomy of the athlete discussed in this thread, so you're in no position to pass such judgement.

 

[transam]

Imo one should take a simplistic approach to this caper

because it’s very simplistic

any bloke masquerading as a woman should not be allowed to take part in woman’s olympics

Simples

if they don’t like it they can go and do one

 

[transam]

Some bloke who wants to masquerade as a woman could take part in F1

moto Gp

woman’s figure skating

snooker

darts

croquet

pigeon racing

fishing

shooting

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

any bloke masquerading as a woman should not be allowed to take part in woman’s olympics

I agree anyone masquerading as one thing in order to unfairly enjoy privileges conferred on others, should be ostracised.

masquerade
verb

1. pretend to be someone one is not.

Maybe that should also apply to someone masquerading as a troll in order to promote their extreme political narrative.

It doesn't apply to genital ambiguity nor to gender dysphoria.
Although both situations may give rise to undue influence being applied to the subject to conform to the label they were assigned at birth.

​

 

[JohnD]

Your attitude to the question depends on your fundamental belief:

Is there such a thing as a "woman" or is just a meaningless word that can be used for anyone and anything?

Women tend to believe that it is not a meaningless word

And it should not be used for a table, a cat, an owl, or a man.

 

[transam]

Some bloke who wants to masquerade as a woman could take part in F1

moto Gp

woman’s figure skating

snooker

darts

croquet

pigeon racing

fishing

shooting

mind you afaik show jumping and all them horse events at the olympics men and woman compete on equal terms ?
So there is no need for some bloke to masquerade as a woman

 

[JohnD]

There are also considerable objections to men telling women what a "woman" is

And who is, or is not, a woman.

And devising rules by which a cat can be redefined as an owl.

 

[transam]

Dunno why u don’t see woman in F1

they have taken part in drag racing for years

last time I was at Santa pod some Swedish lady posted the quickest time of the day 250 mph over the quarter

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Your attitude to the question depends on your fundamental belief:

Is there such a thing as a "woman" or is just a meaningless word that can be used for anyone and anything?

I disagree.
One can accept that there is such thing as a woman, and also recognise that sex is not binary, and as we both appear to agree, gender is also not binary. If sex is ambiguous, and we both agree that incidences arise of genital ambiguity, then it follows that mistakes can be and are made.
Perhaps less so in developed countries, these days, with more advanced medical examination techniques, and delays in assigning a sex. But going back forty odd years ago, and still today in less developed countries, assigning sex at birth, in cases of genital ambiguity will be prone to mistakes.

Women tend to believe that it is not a meaningless word

I think your generalised assumption is misplaced.

Many women will agree that sex and gender is not binary, but obviously there are adherences to that belief and nonconformists.

Neither of us have any idea of the numbers of either group involved.

In addition, many women will have difficulty in agreeing a definition of what women-hood is.

Similarly, going back forty odd years ago, gender dysphoria was probably never considered, and the degree of pressure on subjects to conform to their assigned sex label would have been immense.

And it should not be used for a table, a cat, an owl, or a man.

You're free to assign any label you like to men, women or anything in between.
Of course the label of woman should not be used for a man. No-one has remotely suggested it should be.

Those who have experienced genital ambiguity, and those with gender dysphoria use the term woman or man to describe their own sex or gender., because the choice is so limited and binary.
Society has only the choice of two. Perhaps if there were more options, then a different label would be adopted. But society is not currently ready for such a sea change.
In the meantime, people who have been incorrectly labelled as man or woman at birth, and those with gender dysphoria are obliged to adopt the most appropriate label that conforms as near as possible to their perceived gender.
But you can label them as you think fit, whether it be table, cat, owl, man or woman.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

There are also considerable objections to men telling women what a "woman" is

Agreed. No-one has suggested anything to the contrary.

And who is, or is not, a woman.

Agreed, you for one. But fortunately there are also a growing number of people that are becoming aware of the genital ambiguity, sometimes experienced, and an incorrect label applied, and to gender dysphoria. Which may sometimes go together.
Medical science and social awareness is catching up with reality.

And devising rules by which a cat can be redefined as an owl.

Is this really an issue, or is it another absurdity that you've thrown in?
You're starting to imitate the likes of ELFImpudence, transam, fillyboy, mottie, et all, with your absurdities thrown in for good measure.
Are you learning from their debating techniques?

 

[JohnD]

Unfortunately there is a growing number of people who believe the false claim that a "woman" has so little meaning that anybody can become one simply by saying "I am a woman."

And there are even people who cannot grasp the difference between "sex" and what is today fashionably called "gender."

Having decided that anybody can lay claim to any "gender" they feel like, at any time, and change it at whim, they fall into the trap of assuming that "sex" is also a matter of whim.

It is not.

It is a matter of fact.

 

[JohnD]

Having established that they will pretend to believe something they know to be untrue, such people have difficulty in rejecting other things that are also patently untrue.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Unfortunately there is a growing number of people who believe the false claim that a "woman" has so little meaning that anybody can become one simply by saying "I am a woman."

You reckon. I would have thought the opposite, that there are a growing number of people that are becoming tolerant towards gender dysphoria.

And there are even people who cannot grasp the difference between "sex" and what is today fashionably called "gender."

I'm sure there are.
If your comment was implied to suggest that I am one of them, you're mistaken in your allegation.
Just as you are mistaken in your assumption that sex is binary.

Having decided that anybody can lay claim to any "gender" they feel like, at any time, and change it at whim, they fall into the trap of assuming that "sex" is also a matter of whim.

Maybe they do. But again if you're implying that I am one of them, your allegation is incorrect.
For legal and establishment scenarios, one cannot simply choose to be the opposite sex. It requires extensive evidence to support the 'choice' of being the opposite sex.
But certainly in social situations, one can choose to dress as the opposite sex, if one chooses. But they are not considered to be transgender, they are transvestites.
To be transgender requires a much lengthier approach, sometimes requiring surgery or hormone therapy. And transgenders cannot switch from one gender to another, or back again on a whim. That suggestion is nonsense. Transvestites do adopt the dress of the different sexes on a whim.
I could adopt your tactic and accuse you of being uninformed about transgender and transvestites, but there is no need for me to adopt such underhand tactics. My arguments and supportive documentation is sufficient.

It us a matter of fact.

Except for when it's not, and it's ambiguous.

Ambiguous genitalia is a rare condition in which an infant's external genitals don't appear to be clearly either male or female. In a baby with ambiguous genitalia, the genitals may be incompletely developed or the baby may have characteristics of both sexes. The external sex organs may not match the internal sex organs or genetic sex.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ambiguous-genitalia/symptoms-causes/syc-20369273​