Niceic Certificate very basic?

[eveares]

Are Niceic certificates normally very basic? Mine is only 1 page and is for the replacement of a consumer unit.

The one I have is just a letter of compliance and does not have any info about the earthing system, RCD trip times, etc that I presume were taken when when my instillation was tested.

How can I obtain a more detailed one with all the taken measurements.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes thats the Certificate of Compliance, all you get from NICEIC.

You should have had all those other things in a five page document from the electrician who did the work at the time or very shortly afterwards.

 

[Taylortwocities]

As EFLI says, th eCertificate of Compliance, example

Untitled

• Taylortwocities
• 11 Oct 2008
• 14

comes from NICEIC when the electrician has notified that the work has been completed. NICEIC also tells your local authority that the work has been done and that it complies with BUILDING REGULATIONS.

The electrician should also have given you an extensive document that details the supply, and every circuit connected to the consumer unit. This also contains a declaration from the electrician that the work done complies with BS7671 (The Wiring Regulations).
It will look like this http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File2059.pdf

Ask your electrician where yours is! If he has not given you one (or will not) then contact NICEIC and they will jump on his face until he does it.

 

[eveares]

What happened was the electrician who did all the work as part of a big extension ended up falling out with my main builder and also got in to trouble with the tax man so never ended up coming back to do the final testing.

My builder then got one of his other electricians to do the testing and signing off, and all I received and have got is the NICEIC certificate.

Just wonder if there is any documentation that exists already about my instillation regarding the recorded Ze values, recorded RCD trip times, etc...

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

You should got an electrical installation certificate from the electrician on completion.
This is normally a 3 page document that consist of your details, the electricians details, the description of work, the characteristics of the supply, a schedule of inspection and a schedule of test results.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What happened was the electrician who did all the work as part of a big extension ended up falling out with my main builder

Stop there.

Do you have anything in writing to say that the electrics would be done in compliance with BS 7671?

If so then you must get a full EIC. The problems between your builder and his electrician are none of your concern. If the builder does not hand over an EIC then he has not completed the work as specified, which IMO means he's not entitled to the payment as specified.

and also got in to trouble with the tax man so never ended up coming back to do the final testing.

Likewise any problems between the electrician and HMRC are irrelevant.

 

[eveares]

Do you have anything in writing to say that the electrics would be done in compliance with BS 7671?

Not the i am aware of, but can I can check.

And regarding my original electrician, at the time of my build he was self employed, which he is now no longer; thus is unlikely I will ever be able to get him back. (Hint: that's why it was signed off by a different electrician as could not get my original one back)

And for my main builder, lets just say communications and management between all the trade people was not the greatest. He is likely unaware of any EIC certificates, or is being crafty and holding on to it.


In essence, not wanting to sound harsh; but thinks like buying all the things like the lights, switches, sockets,etc.. should of been paid by the main builder and not me going down to tlc and buying them out my own money. (i.e. Electrician not paid by builder = buying them my self!)

 

[ericmark]

You got the compliance certificate so the electrical installation certificate must have been sent in so should exist.

With a completion certificate it is different the LABC can issue a completion certificate without having the electrical installation certificate and it is made plain in the Part P document that an electrical installation certificate will not be issued by the LABC.

As to what NICEIC does when a member of the scheme dies or is prevented from completing the installation I don't know. One is not permitted to sign off work which one did not control with an electrical installation certificate, however one can issue an electrical installation condition report which is nearly the same thing. The LABC can accept an electrical installation condition report to issue a completion certificate. Don't know what NICEIC would do? but I am sure they would require some document from some one to issue a compliance certificate.

 

[Taylortwocities]

You got the compliance certificate so the electrical installation certificate must have been sent in so should exist.

Sorry Eric, that is not correct. Notification is a simple 3 minute exercise on a PC. There is no link to an Installation Certificate if the notification is done on line to one of the CPS schemes.

If it is done that way, the local authority never sees, or wants to see, a BS7671 installation certificate. All they want is the notification from the CPS scheme provider (NICEIC in this case) that the work has been done to Building Regs. The notification from NICEIC gives the LABC the security that the electrician is operating to CPS rules and is working to agreed standards (Part P and by extension BS7671).

EVEARES. The electrician who did the "signing off" was an NICEIC guy, yes? If so, he took on the work, as his own, and has notified it as his own. It is therefore his responsibility to provide the installation certificate.

Your path to sucess is with NICEIC. They charge a lot of money a year to individual electricians, and give a lot of assurances to customers about their ability to resolve disputes (check out their web site).

Call them tomorrow and make them earn their money!

 

[ericmark]

That is a real eye opener I had always thought that I could pay my fee under freedom of information act and obtain a copy of the installation certificate from the council for any job requiring registration.

Not being able to do that means Part P is useless. Without traceability it's too easy to fiddle. I have a completion certificate for my mothers house for work done when fitting a wet room and the wording is so open without the installation certificate it could have covered a complete re-wire.

That would mean electricians have to retain copies for 10 years until next EICR which is where it all falls down. Like with this case my son was a sole trader, and after a divorce in his case, sold his house and went to work cards in living on a narrow boat, so all paper work had to be dumped, just no room to store it. Since of no fixed abode he would have been hard to trace. I spent many a day riding up the canal tow path on a bike to find him, and he wanted to see me.

The more I learn about the schemes the less point I see in them. I had a door bell wired in my mothers house by the council through a contractor which involved fitting a new socket where originally a transformer had been. To me this was a new circuit but in spite of phone calls again and again both to council and contractor I never got paperwork although not surprised as on plugging in the RCD tester the supply did not trip so clearly no RCD fitted to the socket supply. Neither was there a label to say for door bell only.

So it would seem Part P and the schemes are just a sham to extract more money from Joe Public?

 

[JohnW2]

That is a real eye opener I had always thought that I could pay my fee under freedom of information act and obtain a copy of the installation certificate from the council for any job requiring registration. .... Not being able to do that means Part P is useless. Without traceability it's too easy to fiddle.

I'm not disagreeing. I think it has always been the case that the self-certification system relies upon a high level of trust being placed in those doing the self-certification - trust which is probably usually/often justified, but sometimes not.

Nothing other than random inspections of self-certified work could hope to even start addressing this potential problem. 'Regular re-assessment' only indicates what people can do when being assessed, when someone is 'looking over their shoulder', not what they actually do do when no-one is looking over their shoulder! I deal with lots of regulated situations, and I can't think of any for which there are not some built-in 'QA' procedures.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Taylortwocities]

Every CPS member has an assessment (supposed to be annually).

All that the CPS guy has to do on assessment day is to come armed with a list of the notifications that the electrician has done. The assessor then requires to see and marry up the copies of the installation certificates for each notification.

Meerkat

• Taylortwocities
• 11 Dec 2009
• 53

Simples?

 

[JohnW2]

Every CPS member has an assessment (supposed to be annually). All that the CPS guy has to do on assessment day is to come armed with a list of the notifications that the electrician has done. The assessor then requires to see and marry up the copies of the installation certificates for each notification.

Exactly - is that not a variant of ....

'Regular re-assessment' only indicates what people can do when being assessed, when someone is 'looking over their shoulder', not what they actually do do when no-one is looking over their shoulder!

Someone could presumably be very good at producing installation certificates (maybe with a lot of fictional content) but very much less conscientious when undertaking the actual work!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes, sorry, I didn't take in every nuance of your post. I was more responding to Ericmark.

I have often seen certs that are a work of fiction. One that was an exact copy of the sample in the OSG

I rather think that the cowboy norm is to not bother with that paperwork, rather than to falsify it and not send it to the customer. But hey, who knows.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Someone could presumably be very good at producing installation certificates (maybe with a lot of fictional content) but very much less conscientious when undertaking the actual work!

Yes, that is possible and no checks are done.

Random inspection of previous work by the assessor (or anyone else) could supposedly check on this but that would lead to much more work (and cost) to the schemes and involve communication and arrangement of visits to customers.

You, we (and everyone else) may think that is a good idea but it is not likely to happen.