Niceic Certificate very basic?

[EFLImpudence]

Might I suggest that if only ten people were being killed every year on the roads then there may have been no call to introduce speed limits.

Can things be that bad in the electrical world?

 

[JohnW2]

Might I suggest that if only ten people were being killed every year on the roads then there may have been no call to introduce speed limits. ... Can things be that bad in the electrical world?

You may indeed suggest that, which is a variant of things I very often say. I suspect the same probably also works, more-or-less pro-rata in terms of those seriously injured on the roads and as a result of electricity.

Maybe the part of the equation which people are missing (probably because it's fairly counter-intuitive) is how very rare it is for electric work which is 'substandard', or even frankly 'dangerous', (of which there is probably plenty) to actually result in harm to human beings.

I think it also illustrates how 'silly' are many of the discussions we (in some senses 'necessarily', given that the regs exist) have about (often very marginal) issues of compliance with regulations - since the impact most of these issues have on 'human harm' is probably far too small to be measurable. Things like say, going 20% over the CCC of a cable, having a 10% VD in a circuit, running an additional 3A FCU off an unfused spur from a ring final, having concealed non-MF JBs etc. etc. are just not going to have a measurable effect (if any) on 'human harm', yet we (again, possibly necessarily) spend hours debating them, and 'advising' people about them!

However, it's still 'difficult' for us here. I doubt whether any significant proportion of DIYers have any notions about 'proper isolation & testing for dead', beyond 'flicking the MCB' and perhaps the use of a neon screwdriver - yet the statistics tell us that few, if any, can ever die as a result of this ignorance (if any, it must be a small proportion of a tiny number of deaths). However, despite that, few of us here would be happy not to stress the need for these procedures when it seems 'necessary'. The reality is that we could probably save far more lives by offering advice on road safety and the use of ladders!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

http://www.diynot.com/forums/electrics/diy-is-not-an-electrician-no-sir-not-at-all.293959/

 

[bernardgreen]

If DIYers spent as many hour in the day "doing" electrical work as the hours they spend "in charge" of a car then the deaths per day from electrical accidents may be closer to those from driving "accident".

"in charge" not everyone in the driving seat is a driver
"accident" many of these are caused by human errors so not really an accident

 

[JohnW2]

If DIYers spent as many hour in the day "doing" electrical work as the hours they spend "in charge" of a car then the deaths per day from electrical accidents may be closer to those from driving "accident".

Mathematically speaking, there would obviously be a tendency in that direction, but:

(a)...It is irrelevant, since what matters is the number of incidents/ deaths/ injuries with the situation as it is. Ironically, of course, if a DIYer did spend several hours every day doing electrical work, in many cases they would probably eventually get quite good at it!

(b)...Most of this discussion has been about electricians, not DIYers, and they presumably usually spend a lot more time every day "doing electrical work" than they spend in charge of a moving car.

(c)...Of the tiny numbers of death attributed to electricity in the UK, by no means all will be anything to do with to the quality of work undertaken on the installation - a good few will be due to 'abuse' or 'foolishness' on the part of the consumer/victim. Of those few which are at least partially attributable to work on the installation, we have no idea as to how that number splits between work undertaken by electricians and work undertaken by DIYers. However, given that very much more electrical work is presumbly undertaken by electricians, (in analogy to your statement above) it is quite possible that that more deaths are associated with electrician work than DIY work. We just don't know, but it is likely that the DIY-related deaths (and, indeed, electrician-related deaths) are in 'single figures' per year.

Knowing how easily (and suddenly/unexpectedly) electricity can kill, and how many far-from-perfect electrical installations there are out there, I never cease to be amazed by how few fatalities there are - particularly in comparison with much more 'mundane' causes of 'accidental' death. However, 'the facts are the facts' (recording of causes of death is one of the few fairly reliable aspects of the statistics), so perhaps we all should take this on board when discussing matters of 'electrical safety', particularly if contemplating yet more measures to 'improve electrical safety' and/or to 'point fingers' at any subset of those who undertake electrical work.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

John,
This is the latest I have seen.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmcomloc/906/90605.htm[/QUOTE]The bit of this which most grabbed my attention was...

The UKAS review raises for us the question of competence—particularly that of the "electrician" on the doorstep—and this is at the heart of this inquiry. Under the competent persons schemes for Part P every registered business must have qualified supervisors who have the required competences, as set out in the Electrotechnical Assessment Specification, and only qualified supervisors can certify work as compliant on behalf of their business.[24] When we asked about the competence of the person on the doorstep, Mr Ledsome explained that the way the system operated was that the organisation needed "to be able to assure the competent person scheme operator that the members of that company are competent to do whatever work they are asked to do".[25] We pressed him further asking if "the individual doing the work—the full work of installing a shower or bath, rewiring a house—does not need to have any training or any qualifications. That is true, isn't it?" He replied: "Well, it depends—yes."[26] The Minister added:

But they would not be able to walk away and advise the householder that it was now safe to use that shower or turn on the electrics at the fuse box, unless the qualified supervisor from that firm had signed off the work. It is up to the competent person—the owner of the business in this case, whether it is a sole trader or a limited company—to satisfy themselves that the people who are doing work on their behalf are trained to a sufficient standard.

... so we are reminded that, in terms of the people actually undertaking the electrical work (e.g. "installing a shower or rewiring a house") the CPS operators actually 'pass the buck' of ensuring that the people actually doing the work are 'competent' (everyday sense) to do the work and 'trained to a sufficient standard' (and work to an acceptable standard).

Comments? Is this 'proper regulation'? How do the Scheme operators police the extent and quality of the supervision of the ('not necessarily trained or qualified') people actually doing the electrical work?

Kind Regards, John