Niceic Certificate very basic?

[scousespark]

Every trade and profession will have less than scrupulous people working for them. If a man claims incapacity benefit and is seen building an extension, he is at fault, not the system. That surely applies to any tradesman who cheats a customer.

Every electrical installation (domestic/commercial/industrial) carried out by a tradesman is covered by a whole raft of legislation (HASAWA, ESQCR,COSHH and so on). Part P is a very small part of the regulatory framework. Also, domestic installtions is the only area where DIY is a common occurrence. In the commercial/industrial area BS7671 is the standard worked to, along with C&G qualifications.

There is a government review of the domestic area in progress. Maybe we will end up with a single register for DIs, which covers the scheme operators. That has been proposed and would be a positive move.

 

[bernardgreen]

he is at fault, not the system. That surely applies to any tradesman who cheats a customer.

Both are fault The "tradesman" for being a cheat and the system for not detecting that (s)he is a cheat.

 

[JohnW2]

Every trade and profession will have less than scrupulous people working for them. If a man claims incapacity benefit and is seen building an extension, he is at fault, not the system. That surely applies to any tradesman who cheats a customer.

Of course - but that doesn't mean that, at least in some contexts, 'we' (society, the general public) would not like to see systems in place which seek to minimise the incidence of unacceptable work and attempt to 'catch' those who perpetrate it. However, as I've said, maybe 'we'/they are not too concerned about electrical work - perhaps for the reason you mentioned (not enough deaths).

Every electrical installation (domestic/commercial/industrial) carried out by a tradesman is covered by a whole raft of legislation (HASAWA, ESQCR,COSHH and so on). Part P is a very small part of the regulatory framework. Also, domestic installtions is the only area where DIY is a common occurrence.

This is a DIY site, so everything I've said relates essentially to domestic electric work. As I've said, none of the legislation/regulation (you could also have mentioned Trading Standards) is effectively policed in relation to domestic work. In reality, with the present system, very little substandard domestic work is likely to come to the attention of any officialdom unless the householder makes a complaint, and in many/most cases the householder probably doesn't even realise that there is a reason to complain.

There is a government review of the domestic area in progress. Maybe we will end up with a single register for DIs, which covers the scheme operators. That has been proposed and would be a positive move.

A single register would undoubtedly help. However, as I've said, to be effective it would really need to be the case that it it was compulsory for anyone undertaking paid electrical work to be on that register - just as with the airline pilots, doctors and gas fitters etc.

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

How far would you take things? We could go down the Australian route and limit ALL electrical work to registered electricians and ban the sale of cable and fittings.

We could then restrict membership of 'The Register' to C&G qualified installers with a mnimum number of years experience. Failure to comply with the requirements of registration could then be made a criminal offence with a 5 year tariff.

A nightmare scenario, but it would make the rogues a bit wary.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Edit - written before seeing scousespark's post.


I do not know the details of other trades' inspection systems but, to my mind, the fact that kitchens (fitters) and outside power has been removed from the notifiable work list shows me that the government is not interested in regulation nor, hence, safety.

Until all electricians have to have a licence, without which it would be illegal to undertake electrical work, (thus forbidding DIY) then there is nothing that can be done to police the industry.

 

[JohnW2]

How far would you take things? We could go down the Australian route and limit ALL electrical work to registered electricians and ban the sale of cable and fittings.

We could. As you know, what I've been suggesting ('I would, wouldn't I?"!) is slightly less than that, namely that "ALL paid electrical work" could be limited to registered electricians. However, as you've pointed out, even with their 'full Australian system', the Australians would be pretty hard pressed to demonstrate a significantly lower death rate than we have in the UK - so, as I said, maybe 'we' (UK society) do not want/need any change from our present system.

We could then restrict membership of 'The Register' to C&G qualified installers with a mnimum number of years experience. Failure to comply with the requirements of registration could then be made a criminal offence with a 5 year tariff.

We could contemplate all sorts of things. In terms of the one you suggest, if only registered electricians were allowed to undertake electrical work, how would anyone get the 'minimum number of years' experience' required to get on the register? I suppose you will say that they would have to gain that experience by 'working under supervision', but that would probably open up a whole new can of worms!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

DIY should be permitted on one's own property that is the family home.

Work on people's property or homes in return for payment should be restricted to licenced electricians.

Landlords should not be allowed to do DIY work on property they own and rent out.

More public awareness of the dangers that may created should be spelt out to try to persuade DIYer to seek the necessary advice.

 

[JohnW2]

Until all electricians have to have a licence, without which it would be illegal to undertake electrical work, (thus forbidding DIY) then there is nothing that can be done to police the industry.

As I've just written, although a 'full Australian system' would be a possibility (but, of course, would only be of much use if the conditions for securing, and retaining, a licence were sufficiently rigorous), one could (if one wanted to ) 'let off DIYers' by only restricting paid electrical electrical work (and maybe also unpaid work outside of one's own home) to those with licences.
Edit - typing too slow (in truth, making coffee!), yet again

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I do not know the details of other trades' inspection systems but, to my mind, the fact that kitchens (fitters) and outside power has been removed from the notifiable work list shows me that the government is not interested in regulation nor, hence, safety.

It could, of course, be that (although they wouldn't admit it, or necessarily even make their statistics available), they 'noticed' that the introduction of Part P (hence notification) had not, in the course of nearly a decade, had any appreciable impact on safety (as judged by electricity-related deaths and serious injuries).

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

It could, of course, be that (although they wouldn't admit it, or necessarily even make their statistics available), they 'noticed' that the introduction of Part P (hence notification) had not, in the course of nearly a decade, had any appreciable impact on safety (as judged by electricity-related deaths and serious injuries).

Then it should have been done away with completely.
It was, after all, brought in primarily to 'regulate' and ensure safety of the 'ancillary' workers who do electrical work.

The remaining notification list is a joke.

 

[JohnW2]

Then it should have been done away with completely. It was, after all, brought in primarily to 'regulate' and ensure safety of the 'ancillary' workers who do electrical work. ... The remaining notification list is a joke.

I cannot really disagree with any of that - what we now have (in England) is 'neither one thing nor the other'.

If there is any sense at all in what little they have left on the 'notification list', I suppose that 'new circuits' and 'CU replacements' (assuming associated issues are addressed) probably involve more 'design' than many/most other works.

Does anyone know whether there are any proposals under discussion for further changes (in either direction!) in the 'notification list'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

John,

This is the latest I have seen.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmcomloc/906/90605.htm

The committee were not impressed by the last changes, but this may not result in any changes.

The thread seems to have come full circle and back to the inadequate Part P system of notification. The recent posts seem to favour an electrical version of Gas Safe. If this becomes the situation, there should be an onus on a diyer to prove their competence (as is the situation with gas).

 

[JohnW2]

John, This is the latest I have seen.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmcomloc/906/90605.htm
The committee were not impressed by the last changes, but this may not result in any changes.

Many thanks. I'll have a read

The thread seems to have come full circle and back to the inadequate Part P system of notification.

Quite so. As I wrote to EFLI, what we now have in England is 'neither one thing nor the other', which really doesn't seem to make much sense, whatever one's thoughts about the situation may be - i.e. the present situation probably "pleases no-one"!

The recent posts seem to favour an electrical version of Gas Safe.

Yes, I think that's a reasonable way of putting it - although I personally don't know enough about Gas Safe to know how effective it is at attempting to 'ensure' that substandard work is not done.

If this becomes the situation, there should be an onus on a diyer to prove their competence (as is the situation with gas).

Some will try to argue that what a householder does in his/her own home should be relatively immune from regulation - but I don't really see why that should be the case in relation to electrical work when it is not in relation to all the other parts of the Building Regs. I certainly don't have any problem with DIYers being required to be 'competent' (as Part P etc. already requires them to be), but I'm not quite sure how one would go about 'proving' that - what is the system with gas to which you refer?

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

When any electrician is working on a domestic job, all of the regulations apply and then Part P notification is added for the ridiculously low number of jobs. That's why I challenged your assertion that the whole industry is unregulated. A homeowner has a duty of care to anybody in his property. Would you be happy if a menber of your family was injured because a diyer did a job beyond their ability? I am not in the ban diy camp, but I do believe that a diyer should know what is required.

My cousin is a BG fitter and it is almost impossible for a diyer to prove competence. It's much more onerous than electrics. You won't find instructions on the internet (even this site refuses to give gas advice). Look it up and see how little information there is.

Anyway, off to watch the first semi.

 

[JohnW2]

When any electrician is working on a domestic job, all of the regulations apply and then Part P notification is added for the ridiculously low number of jobs. That's why I challenged your assertion that the whole industry is unregulated.

Maybe you have helped me to understand why I put quote marks around 'proper regulation' Yes, what you say is true in the sense that all electricians (indeed, anyone undertaking electrical work) are 'subject to regulations'. However that is, IMO, in itself, not the same as 'being properly regulated'. You could say that motorists are 'regulated' ('subject to regulations) in the sense that, for example, there are legally-imposed speed limits. However, if there were no speed cameras, no traffic police etc, then there would, in practice, be no 'proper regulation' (and probably little compliance with the regulations)!

A homeowner has a duty of care to anybody in his property. Would you be happy if a menber of your family was injured because a diyer did a job beyond their ability?

We seem to be jumping around topics a bit here! I'm not quite sure what situation you are thinking of. Are you referring to DIY work undertaken by the home owner or some other member of the household? If so, as you say, there is already a legal duty of care, and it would be tedious in the extreme if the law had to spell out (undoubtedly not comprehensively) an endless list of all the hazardous things (one of which would be DIY electrical work) which someone could do in their home which could pose a risk to people in the property.

I am not in the ban diy camp, but I do believe that a diyer should know what is required.

As I've said (but shouldn't really even need to say), I totally agree with that. However, if the situation evolved into one in which there was a requirement for DIYers to 'prove competence' and (in the manner you suggest may be true of gas work) it was 'almost impossible' to do that proving', then one would effective have banned electrical DIY work. Since you say that you're not in the 'ban DIY camp', do I take it that you would not support such a system which required 'almost impossible' proving of competence by DIYers, and therefore which represented an 'effective ban'?

Enjoy the match!

Kind Regards, John