Notification - 'replacements' within bathroom zones

[JohnW2]

In another thread (( click here ) ...

There are 3 downlighters in the bathroom ... I plan on swapping these for 3 x 12v downlighters with each having there own tranformer. Would I need to ... notify building control to swap these?

... notification is not required if replacing and if fitting are outside the bathroom zones.

I have no argument with that answer. However, what if the light fittings are within the bathroom zones (PBoD's answer above seems to imply that the work would be notifiable if within zones)?

Under the new rules (England), the only pertinent work which is notifiable is “any addition or alteration to existing circuits in a special location”. The question is therefore whether replacing one light fitting with another light fitting constitutes an “alteration” (rather than a ‘replacement’) – and I personally doubt that it does. Even under the ‘old rules’, 1(a) of the Schedule allowed “replacing any fixed equipment....” without notification (even within bathroom zones), and it was frequently pointed out that ‘replacement’ did not necessarily mean ‘like for like’ (which would often be impossible, anyway, due to non-availability of old products) – i.e. that replacing one light fitting with a different light fitting was a ‘replacement’.

So what do people think? My inclination is to say that replacing a light fitting with a different light fitting is a ‘replacement’, not an ‘alteration’ – and hence not notifiable under current rules (England), even if within bathroom zones. If one disagrees with that (and therefore thinks that it is now notifiable), this would be an example (the only example?) of something that is notifiable now (in England) but which would not have been notifiable before April – which I find hard to believe was intended.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Spark123]

I don't think it is notifiable, replacing on a like for like is basically maintenance.
P1 still applies, it's got to be safe so you need to ensure that accessories are suitable for location, MIs followed and so on.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't think it is notifiable, replacing on a like for like is basically maintenance.

As I said, I don't think it's notifiable, either. However, what do you mean by 'like for like' (a concept much cited, but nowhere mentioned in the legislation)? As I said, replacement with an identical product will often be impossible. due to non-availability. I think my view is that replacing a light fitting with any light fitting ('within reason', I suppose!) counts as a 'replacement', hence not notifiable (even within bathroom zones) - do you agree?

P1 still applies, it's got to be safe so you need to ensure that accessories are suitable for location, MIs followed and so on.

All of that obviously goes without saying. It was the notification issue I was wanting to clarify, given (the apparent implications of) what PBoD had written.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I think my view is that replacing a light fitting with any light fitting ('within reason', I suppose!) counts as a 'replacement', hence not notifiable (even within bathroom zones)

Yup - replacing a light fitting with a light fitting.

Replacing X fittings with Y fittings where X < Y is clearly an addition, so notifiable.

When X > Y - is that an alteration?

 

[JohnW2]

I think my view is that replacing a light fitting with any light fitting ('within reason', I suppose!) counts as a 'replacement', hence not notifiable (even within bathroom zones)

Yup - replacing a light fitting with a light fitting.

Indeed.

Replacing X fittings with Y fittings where X < Y is clearly an addition, so notifiable.

Agreed.

When X > Y - is that an alteration?

In terms of notifiability, common sense would probably say 'no', wouldn't it, although I agree that there is a potential issue for some in terms of the wording of the legislation - since, in everyday English terms, it is an 'alteration'.

I suppose some people might try quibbling about the defoinition of 'a fitting'. For example, if X &#8805; Y, but all the X were 'single lamp fittings', whereas the Ys were 'multiple lamp fittings'. However, I think I would be happy to stick with the notion that 'a fitting is a fitting', regardless of what those fittings were (e.g. how many lamps).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I think it's the same as many items under new English laws.

Unless it's clear that it means you must notify no one is going the pay the fee. Were a £10 fee is charged then maybe people will pay just in case. With a £100 plus fee then no way will people pay unless clearly shown that they must.

X < Y is clearly an addition

In maths maybe but if I replaced a single bulb with an array of 3 bulbs I would consider it to be simple replacement rather than an extra. And if I replace an array of 3 bulbs with 3 separate fittings again replacement rather than addition.

So in real terms fitting a new electric shower where originally there was not one clearly notifiable the same with shaver point. But replace a shaver point with a heated mirror with shaver point built in then it would be hard to show notification was required.

The problem is with the old Part P one notified unless it was listed as not required but with new one this is swapped and one only notifies if on the list.

Only way would be court cases and it's very unlikely that one will ever be fought so really it's a free for all.

What we have to look at is not the DIY man but the Kitchen Fitter and Plumber who now may consider they can again start doing there own electrics.

So if for example a Plumber was to swap a shower he would not need to notify but if he also agreed to swap the single pendent lamp for a array of 50mm spots would he need to notify. I would say yes.

He should of course issue a minor works certificate after changing a shower and what I would like to know will he issue a minor works certificate and if not will the house owner be able to do anything to correct this?

 

[JohnW2]

The problem is with the old Part P ...

As people keep reminding you, there is no such thing as an 'old' (or 'new') Part P. Part P of the Building REgulations has remain unchanged, in both England and Wales, since it first came into force on 1st January 2005. What you are talking about is changes in Building Regulations (in England)as regarding notifiable works.

...one notified unless it was listed as not required but with new one this is swapped and one only notifies if on the list.

That's true, but it's pretty irrelevant to this particular discussion. In fact, it was the 'old' notification rules (still current in Wales) that allowed one to not notify about 'replacement' of fittings/equipment in bathroom zones (but which required notification about other works within bathroom zones) - so the question as to 'what is, and is not, a replacement' was crucial then.

Kind Regards, John