What certificate do I need for my bathroom electrics?

[DavidA1982]

Hi all

I've got a builder in to do my bathroom. This used to be two separate rooms (lavatory and bathroom). Each used to have a ceiling light. I've knocked the two rooms in to one. The electrical work involved has been:

1) Putting in a new mirror (with lights and a shaver socket). The electrician has simply used the cable that used to feed the lavatory light to feed the new mirror.

2) Replacing the old ceiling light in the bathroom (fluorescent tube) with 6 downlights. The switch that used to operate the light in the lavatory will be used to switch these lights. The ceiling is quite high - about 2.6m.

Firstly, is this work notifiable? The builder says no, as all he is doing is moving around existing circuits and daisy-chaining the spotlights from an existing light fitting.

I submitted a notification to building control in respect of the wider renovation works and mentioned the changes to the bathroom in that notification. In the notification I stated that all notifiable electrical work would be undertaken by a qualified electrician who would certify the work through an appropriate competent persons scheme (the builder's quote stated that all notifiable work would be undertaken by a "Part P qualified electrician"). Therefore if the work is notifiable, I need the builder to get his electrician in to do the work and submit the relevant paperwork, don't I?

If it is not notifiable, do I need any documentation? We will be selling the house in the next year or so, so I need everything to be properly documented.

Thanks!

EDIT: I know that some people hate using downlights to light bathrooms and kitchens. The truth is, I don't much care what lights are used but my wife does, so downlights it is. Are they designed to light bathrooms? Probably not. Are they as good as proper lights designed to light bathrooms? No. Is it worth arguing this point with her? Absolutely not. If it helps, we were going to have downlights in the kitchen but I did manage to convince her that they would be unsuitable in that room so we now have proper ceiling lighting and a modest amount of LED lighting under the worktops, but she could not live with anything other than downlights in the bathroom.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Notification would depend on where the alterations were made in respect to the bathroom zones. New work in zones 0, 1 and 2 require notification any new circuits would require notification also, so would a board swap.

Do these circuits have RCD protection, did this exist prior to this new work, has the characteristics of the consumer unit been changed due to this?

All domestic electrical must comply to part p, whether it be notifiable or not.
And your electrical work must be certificated, the certificate would depend on the scope of the work, but a minor works or electrical installation cert would be required.

If any work on this project is deemed notifiable, logic would say do an EIC for all electrical work and notify all works at the same time.

//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:bathroom_zones

//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:Part-P

 

[DavidA1982]

Thanks. I'm pretty sure the new mirror is within 60cm of the shower screen so I think that puts it in zone 2 - that is if it is "new work". The builder is saying he's just moving an existing cable (that used to power a ceiling light) down the wall to feed a mirror instead.

The circuits all existed prior to the work; there is RCD protection and there is no change to the consumer unit.

So if this means it's notifiable, he needs to get an electrician to install/sign off and notify through the relevant body, is that right? And if not, I need to ask for a minor works certificate - is that right?

Out of interest, I've added sockets to the upstairs ring main in one of the bedrooms. Obviously that was not notifiable and I cannot issue myself with a minor works certificate for it.... is there a problem?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Just as an additional comment.
*Not all notifiable work requires a EIC, on occasions a minor works cert will do.
*Also (not wanting to confuse things), but minor works does not necessarily need to be documented in a minor works cert and EIC can be used, but generally they are laborious to complete.

So in summary all work needs certs, all work must be compliant to part p, regardless of work type.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I'm pretty sure the new mirror is within 60cm of the shower screen so I think that puts it in zone 2 - that is if it is "new work". The builder is saying he's just moving an existing cable (that used to power a ceiling light) down the wall to feed a mirror instead.

If the shower screen is aligned with edge of the shower/bath basin then it is in zone 2. If a cable has been newly installed, I would consider moving a cable from one position to a new one as being newly installed. It is deemed notifiable once in the zones. It will also need to be placed in the permitted safe zones for cable routes or be mechanically protected or buried greater than 50mm in wall, this includes reverse of wall (50mm rule very really used as chase depths often breach Part A of building regs.

The circuits all existed prior to the work; there is RCD protection and there is no change to the consumer unit.

There is no problem connecting to existing but if cables are moved in to zones, then in my opinion it is notifiable.

So if this means it's notifiable, he needs to get an electrician to install/sign off and notify through the relevant body, is that right? And if not, I need to ask for a minor works certificate - is that right?/quote]
If it notifiable there are two options:
*The work must be notified prior to starting work and be supervised by building controls.
* or you employ an electrician that can self notify work and on completion they then have 25 days to notify.

You need a minor works cert or a EIC, regardless of whether it is deemed notifiable. All electrical installation require certificates issued by the installer.

Out of interest, I've added sockets to the upstairs ring main in one of the bedrooms. Obviously that was not notifiable and I cannot issue myself with a minor works certificate for it.... is there a problem?

Socket outlets now require RCD protection as will in most cases any newly buried cable. Adding a socket is not notifiable work but should be inspected and tested, and those results documented in at least a minor works cert.
If you know how to inspect, test, understand the findings and readings taken, understand how to apply them to BS7671 and document them.
Then there would be very little to stop you doing this, DIY electrics is not illegal, what is is not complying to Part P. Reasonable provision of safety!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

For some reason edit function not working for me
But this is what you should be taking notice of

 

[winston1]

but she could not live with anything other than downlights in the bathroom.

And she won't have too for long if you are selling it.

 

[DavidA1982]

I'm pretty sure the new mirror is within 60cm of the shower screen so I think that puts it in zone 2 - that is if it is "new work". The builder is saying he's just moving an existing cable (that used to power a ceiling light) down the wall to feed a mirror instead.

If the shower screen is aligned with edge of the shower/bath basin then it is in zone 2. If a cable has been newly installed, I would consider moving a cable from one position to a new one as being newly installed. It is deemed notifiable once in the zones. It will also need to be placed in the permitted safe zones for cable routes or be mechanically protected or buried greater than 50mm in wall, this includes reverse of wall (50mm rule very really used as chase depths often breach Part A of building regs.

The circuits all existed prior to the work; there is RCD protection and there is no change to the consumer unit.

There is no problem connecting to existing but if cables are moved in to zones, then in my opinion it is notifiable.

So if this means it's notifiable, he needs to get an electrician to install/sign off and notify through the relevant body, is that right? And if not, I need to ask for a minor works certificate - is that right?/quote]
If it notifiable there are two options:
*The work must be notified prior to starting work and be supervised by building controls.
* or you employ an electrician that can self notify work and on completion they then have 25 days to notify.

You need a minor works cert or a EIC, regardless of whether it is deemed notifiable. All electrical installation require certificates issued by the installer.

Out of interest, I've added sockets to the upstairs ring main in one of the bedrooms. Obviously that was not notifiable and I cannot issue myself with a minor works certificate for it.... is there a problem?

Socket outlets now require RCD protection as will in most cases any newly buried cable. Adding a socket is not notifiable work but should be inspected and tested, and those results documented in at least a minor works cert.
If you know how to inspect, test, understand the findings and readings taken, understand how to apply them to BS7671 and document them.
Then there would be very little to stop you doing this, DIY electrics is not illegal, what is is not complying to Part P. Reasonable provision of safety!

Thanks for the detail. So basically, if he's moved the cable that used to feed a ceiling light so that it now feeds a mirror in Zone 2, it's notifiable.

I included some high level details of the changes to the bathroom in my notification to building control, but on the form there is a box you tick to say that all electrical work will be carried out by a Part P qualified electrician. I ticked this box, as my builders' quote said that this was the case. Building control are not supervising the work, they have already issued a completion certificate (the main part of the project involved some structural work which was completed a month or so ago).

So I basically need to get the builder to tell his electrician to notify the work through his Competent Person Scheme.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks for the detail. So basically, if he's moved the cable that used to feed a ceiling light so that it now feeds a mirror in Zone 2, it's notifiable.

I think that has to be the case. I'm sure that one can't get away with saying that something installed in Zone 2 is not notifiable because it uses a cable that used to go somewhere else!

I included some high level details of the changes to the bathroom in my notification to building control, but on the form there is a box you tick to say that all electrical work will be carried out by a Part P qualified electrician. I ticked this box, as my builders' quote said that this was the case. Building control are not supervising the work, they have already issued a completion certificate (the main part of the project involved some structural work which was completed a month or so ago). ... So I basically need to get the builder to tell his electrician to notify the work through his Competent Person Scheme.

That's how it should be. However, IF the electrical work was adequately specified in the BC notification (i.e. such as to make it clear that some of the work was 'within zones') and if they have issued a completion certificate, it sounds as if BC probably consider that the work has already been notified. I suppose you could ask BC if they require anything further from the electrician. Notification apart, you still ought to have a certificate (EIC or MWC) from the electrician.

Kind Regards, John

 

[DavidA1982]

Thanks for the detail. So basically, if he's moved the cable that used to feed a ceiling light so that it now feeds a mirror in Zone 2, it's notifiable.

I think that has to be the case. I'm sure that one can't get away with saying that something installed in Zone 2 is not notifiable because it uses a cable that used to go somewhere else!

I included some high level details of the changes to the bathroom in my notification to building control, but on the form there is a box you tick to say that all electrical work will be carried out by a Part P qualified electrician. I ticked this box, as my builders' quote said that this was the case. Building control are not supervising the work, they have already issued a completion certificate (the main part of the project involved some structural work which was completed a month or so ago). ... So I basically need to get the builder to tell his electrician to notify the work through his Competent Person Scheme.

That's how it should be. However, IF the electrical work was adequately specified in the BC notification (i.e. such as to make it clear that some of the work was 'within zones') and if they have issued a completion certificate, it sounds as if BC probably consider that the work has already been notified. I suppose you could ask BC if they require anything further from the electrician. Notification apart, you still ought to have a certificate (EIC or MWC) from the electrician.

Kind Regards, John

Thanks. The notification really did not focus on the bathroom, we just showed that we were moving a few walls. I'm not even going to pretend that they could guess that there would be electrical work done within the zones. And, as i said, I told BC that any electrical work would be notified through a Competent Person Scheme.

 

[DavidA1982]

Out of interest, is there anything I can do (outside of contract law) to force the builder to give me a certificate if he is difficult about it? As the contractor doing the work, does he have any responsibility for ensuring that the regs etc are complied with or does it all lie with me? My guess is that he won't want to use an electrician to sign it off to save costs, and he's coming in tomorrow to install the ceiling lights and finish off. He's already told me that I don't need a certificate. His quote said that all electrical work should be undertaken by a qualified electrician so I can always use that to force it a bit, but if there is something else that I can point to that says that he, as the contractor, as primary responsibility for applying the law correctly then it would be really helpful.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks. The notification really did not focus on the bathroom, we just showed that we were moving a few walls. I'm not even going to pretend that they could guess that there would be electrical work done within the zones. And, as i said, I told BC that any electrical work would be notified through a Competent Person Scheme.

Fair enough. I'm not sure how it is meant to work in a situation like this - it sounds as if you are thinking that any notifiable electrical work (and there clearly is some), which you told BC would be self-certified by a member of a CPS, would result in a further completion certificate, but I would have guessed /suspected that they would just issue a single completion certificate for the whole project.

Whatever, it sounds as if you need to talk to your builder about the electrician. If the notifiable work (which you said the builder doesn't consider to be notifiable!) was not undertaken by a CPS member, then you clearly have a bit of a problem. If it was, then you need to ascertain whether it was notified via a CPS and, if not, demand that that should be done now.

Kind Regards, John

 

[DavidA1982]

Thanks. The notification really did not focus on the bathroom, we just showed that we were moving a few walls. I'm not even going to pretend that they could guess that there would be electrical work done within the zones. And, as i said, I told BC that any electrical work would be notified through a Competent Person Scheme.

Fair enough. I'm not sure how it is meant to work in a situation like this - it sounds as if you are thinking that any notifiable electrical work (and there clearly is some), which you told BC would be self-certified by a member of a CPS, would result in a further completion certificate, but I would have guessed /suspected that they would just issue a single completion certificate for the whole project.

Whatever, it sounds as if you need to talk to your builder about the electrician. If the notifiable work (which you said the builder doesn't consider to be notifiable!) was not undertaken by a CPS member, then you clearly have a bit of a problem. If it was, then you need to ascertain whether it was notified via a CPS and, if not, demand that that should be done now.

Kind Regards, John

Thanks

That has to be the correct answer. You guys have helped me confirm that the work is notifiable, so it has to be notified. I did NOT do this as part of the notification to building control, so it HAS to be done through a Competent Person Scheme now (and this is what I thought would happen anyway).

And I also need a certificate from the electrician.

Is there anything I can do if he refuses? As I mentioned above, I've done a bit of DIY electrics in an upstairs bedroom and I don't have a minor works certificate for that. That's my problem. But if I'm paying a builder to do a bathroom, I do expect that he will comply with the relevant laws (especially when he says that all electrical work should be carried out by a NIC certified engineer).

 

[JohnW2]

That has to be the correct answer. You guys have helped me confirm that the work is notifiable, so it has to be notified. I did NOT do this as part of the notification to building control, so it HAS to be done through a Competent Person Scheme now (and this is what I thought would happen anyway). And I also need a certificate from the electrician.

That sounds about right.

Is there anything I can do if he refuses? .... But if I'm paying a builder to do a bathroom, I do expect that he will comply with the relevant laws (especially when he says that all electrical work should be carried out by a NIC certified engineer).

A lot of it is presumably down to what's in your contract with the builder. If it says that electrical work will be undertaken by an electrician who was a member of a CPS (and notified via the CPS if it is notifiable) and that isn't what happened, then that is presumably a breach of the contract. Certificates may be more of a problem. Unless the contract says that you will be supplied with relevant electrical certificates, the electrician's only obligation is probably to give them to the builder who employed them. You also probably need to look carefully at the 'small print' of the contract - it's not impossible that, far from saying that the builder is responsible for the compliance of sub-contractors, it might even say the opposite!

As I hinted before, a possible problem I can see is that if the builder did not believe that any of the electrical work was notifiable, he may not have employed a self-certifying electrician to do it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[DavidA1982]

Thanks. I'll speak to the builder and thrash it out with him. I'm sure he's one of the good guys - I've been impressed with his work and dedication so far, so I'm sure we can work out how to deal with the situation. Of course I may have it all wrong and he's had his electrician do all the work already.

Thanks again for your help.