outdoor electrics plan

[nos]

Hi, I'm having some building work done over the next few weeks and want to take the opportunity to run some electrics to the back garden for the future... when I plan to build a pergola attached to the back of the house to create an undercover seating area.

The electrical work will be done by the contractor so all signed off etc and all outdoor sockets/switches will be rated for outdoors. So I just want to make sure my plans are doable and the best way to achieve what I want.

I've attached a sketch of my plans here...

Untitled

• nos
• 19 Sep 2014
• 1

My requirements are: -
1. 12v garden lighting for path and borders etc. Dusk/Dawn switched.
2. 2 x 2000w electrical heaters with switch on wall for each unit
3. 2 x sets of lighting for under the pergola with switch on wall for each unit
4. 1 x double socket for gardening equipment etc

I want to be able turn off all outdoor electrics from a switch inside the house, except for 12v garden lights which I want to always be on via a dusk/dawn switch.

Running a separate circuit from the CU is very difficult, so rather than go to the trouble of that, I think the the upstairs circuit could be extended. I've chosen the upstairs circuit rather than the downstairs circuit as there's very little load on it, just a tv, dvd player and hairdryer/hoover every now and again. The downstairs circuit already contains the lounge, dining room and part of the kitchen.

Any advice, corrections or suggestions of a better way of achieving what I'm after is welcome.... cheers.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Wow.

Where to start?

Please tell your electrician what items you want outside and he will, hopefully, do it properly.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The electrical work will be done by the contractor

Not to that design. Everything must come from the load side of the FCU, so you can't have 4kW of heating.

But then if you do the civilised and intelligent thing of changing your mind about it being a good idea to try and heat the outside that problem will go away, and all you're left with is finding lights which don't plug into sockets. You wouldn't do that for fixed lighting on the ceilings indoors, so why do it outside?

 

[nos]

I'm not really looking for opinions on outdoor heating tbh... just looking for a way of achieving my requirements.

What I've put on the drawing clearly doesn't work which is fair enough, so how can it be done?

I know I could use a FCU unit on the ring for each outdoor heater and socket... but ideally I'd like to be able to have some kind of master switch inside the house to turn off all outdoor electrics, that's the bit that's puzzling me.

and all you're left with is finding lights which don't plug into sockets. You wouldn't do that for fixed lighting on the ceilings indoors, so why do it outside?

The lights are going to be decorative rather than fixed, something like LED festoon lighting which generally come with a plug. I don't see a problem with that.

 

[JohnW2]

I know I could use a FCU unit on the ring for each outdoor heater and socket...

Yes, you could theoretically do that, probably plus another FCU for the lighting and probably another FCU for the other double socket, plus yet another FCU for your garden lighting. You could even have two unfused spurs, taken directly from the ring, for each of the heater sockets, and maybe even a third, for that other socket. However no matter how you did it, you would probably have five (certainly three/four) separate feeds from the ring. However, that in itself would be a potential problem if they were all connected to very close places on the ring. I really dont think you should be consider doing it that way.

... but ideally I'd like to be able to have some kind of master switch inside the house to turn off all outdoor electrics, that's the bit that's puzzling me.

I think it's puzzling you because its impossible. As above, if you want to run all this off a ring circuit, there would probably have to be four/five (certainly three/four) separate connections to the ring, so there would be no way of switching them with a single switch.

If you want a single switch, probably the simplest solution would be to have a suitable new radial circuit from your CU installed, specifically for all this outdoor stuff. You could then have a single switch in that circuit. Whatever, as has been said, you really need to discuss all this with an electrician, who may well have other ideas - I'm sure that there are many ways of skinning this particular cat.

Kind Regards, John

 

[nos]

I know I could use a FCU unit on the ring for each outdoor heater and socket...

Yes, you could theoretically do that, probably plus another FCU for the lighting and probably another FCU for the other double socket, plus yet another FCU for your garden lighting. You could even have two unfused spurs, taken directly from the ring, for each of the heater sockets, and maybe even a third, for that other socket. However no matter how you did it, you would probably have five (certainly three/four) separate feeds from the ring. However, that in itself would be a potential problem if they were all connected to very close places on the ring. I really dont think you should be consider doing it that way.

... but ideally I'd like to be able to have some kind of master switch inside the house to turn off all outdoor electrics, that's the bit that's puzzling me.

I think it's puzzling you because its impossible. As above, if you want to run all this off a ring circuit, there would probably have to be four/five (certainly three/four) separate connections to the ring, so there would be no way of switching them with a single switch.

If you want a single switch, probably the simplest solution would be to have a suitable new radial circuit from your CU installed, specifically for all this outdoor stuff. You could then have a single switch in that circuit. Whatever, as has been said, you really need to discuss all this with an electrician, who may well have other ideas - I'm sure that there are many ways of skinning this particular cat.

Kind Regards, John

Cheers for the helpful advice John. If it can only be a new radial circuit then that's what it will have to be, will see what the sparks say and will take a look at we can get a cable from the CU to where it needs to be.

 

[JohnW2]

Cheers for the helpful advice John. If it can only be a new radial circuit then that's what it will have to be, will see what the sparks say and will take a look at we can get a cable from the CU to where it needs to be.

As I said, trying to hang all that outdoor stuff of a ring circuit is really not a nice/good idea and, if you want a single switch, then I think that a new dedicated radial circuit is probably the simplest (maybe only) approach - your electrician will certainly be able to advise. Provided it is a double-pole switch, that would also enable you to completely isolate the outdoor installation should it develop (often water-related!) problems - which could, for example, trip an RCD in your CU and thereby kill several other circuits.

Kind Regards, John

 

[nos]

Yep makes sense. Have got a spare MCB on a separate garage CU which has RCD protection so can potentially use that with a 32amp MCB. If it ever trips like you've said, would then only take out the garage circuit rather than the circuits in the house.

I've just taken a look and I think they'll have to bring the cable out of the side of the garage wall, then along the wall to the back of the house, visually not great but easily doable.

So thinking out loud for a second... I take it I could then go directly to the dusk/dawn sensor for the garden lighting (so that's always on) and then to a switch inside the house which I can use to isolate the rest of the circuit and then onto the outside sockets/switches as required?

What kind of switch would be used to isolate the supply? Something like a 32 amp double pole?

Like this one... http://www.qvsdirect.com/mk-logic-plus-32a-switch-with-neon-white

 

[JohnW2]

Yep makes sense. Have got a spare MCB on a separate garage CU which has RCD protection so can potentially use that with a 32amp MCB ...

That would depend on various things, not the least being what (and what cable) is supplying that garage CU - your electrician will be able to advise.

So thinking out loud for a second... I take it I could then go directly to the dusk/dawn sensor for the garden lighting (so that's always on) and then to a switch inside the house which I can use to isolate the rest of the circuit and then onto the outside sockets/switches as required?

It would probably need to go through an FCU to the garden lighting - your electrician will be able to advise.

What kind of switch would be used to isolate the supply? Something like a 32 amp double pole? Like this one... http://www.qvsdirect.com/mk-logic-plus-32a-switch-with-neon-white

Probably something like that - yet again, your electrician will be able to advise.

Kind Regards, John

 

[nos]

The garage CU is supplied by a 32 amp MCB off the main CU, with 4 or 6mm cable, but are right next to each other so easily upgradeable if needed.

Will speak to the electrician about it all, but thanks for your help, is all a bit clearer now.

cheers

 

[EFLImpudence]

nos, the fundamental problem is that outside electrics is not a DIY job.

 

[nos]

nos, the fundamental problem is that outside electrics is not a DIY job.

I know it's not a DIY job, that's never been suggested... however this is a DIY forum for seeking advice no?

 

[JohnW2]

nos, the fundamental problem is that outside electrics is not a DIY job.

We are being told that it is not going to be DIYed but, if that were being suggested/proposed, I would suggest that the fact that the work is (just about) outside would probably be the least of the problems. I would have thought that the OP would still be advised not to DIY this work, even if it were entirely indoors.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

nos, the fundamental problem is that outside electrics is not a DIY job.

We are being told that it is not going to be DIYed but, if that were being suggested/proposed, I would suggest that the fact that the work is (just about) outside would probably be the least of the problems. I would have thought that the OP would still be advised not to DIY this work, even if it were entirely indoors.

Well, that may (just about) be true but only in a new build.

Were it indoors, he would just plug in everything.

 

[JohnW2]

Well, that may (just about) be true but only in a new build. Were it indoors, he would just plug in everything.

I was, needless to say, talking about the circuit design - i.e. the proposal as to how five new sockets were to be connected to the existing ring final in order to be able to plug various things in to them. In other words, the main issue related to the OP's design capabilities, not to the fact that it was outside.

Kind Regards, John