Part "p" an all that

[dan21mag]

Puttin two power showers in a house im workin on..
Came off the immersion with a double spur... ( 2 fuse connection units).both rated at 3 amps( but 160 watt motors on both pumps)
got grief from a jumped up sparky telling me i should be part p to spur off the immersion(ok)
but he told me i shouldnt be spuring off the immersion AT ALL....
i reckon 15amps can handle 3kw immersion and two pumps>>>
any comments from u plumbing guys???
ive done loads of these installations in past, never a problem..

 

[ChrisR]

he told me i shouldnt be spuring off the immersion AT ALL....

He's right.

ive done loads of these installations in past, never a problem..

You, don't matter.

 

[plugwash]

spurring off the immersion and part P is a tricky one it really depends on if you consider the immersion heater cuircuit to be a very small radial or a dedicated appliance cuircuit.

also its generally considered bad practice to spur off the immersion cuircuit though if its only an amp or two for a pump its not going to be a problem.I dunno if there are any regs against it but do note that part P doesn't actually require compliance with the IEE regs anyway.

 

[securespark]

Why did the guy say you had to be PP to work on the imm htr circuit? Was it in the bathroom?

Plug - why does it matter if it is a dedicated circuit or a radial? Cooker circuits are dedicated, but it is deemed acceptable here to spur off for hob igns, hoods etc, also showr circs with fans on them....

Chris R - why can't you spur off a immersion?

There is nothing to stop you spurring off a 15A radial for 2 pumps rated at 160W each. There will be a surge on switching the motors, but the device should cope, even if the immersion is on and both pumps are switched on together, which is unlikely. The IEE will back me up here.

Is it a rewireable, breaker or cart fuse?

The only thing I would do is put an rcd on the circuit if there is none already.

 

[ChrisR]

"Chris R - why can't you spur off a immersion? "

Perhaps I'm wrong - it's one of those things I've "always heard" - or so I thought. Usually in the context of taking a spur off the immersion to power the central heating, which is quite a small load.
In either case it would have to be a fused spur surely, not that kitchen fitters generally bother when it comes to wiring a hob off the oven.

"note that part P doesn't actually require compliance with the IEE regs "
Surely everything hass to be done in accordance with current regulations?
And doesn't Part P say that anyone doing eleccy work has to be qualified, even if not in a kitchen/bathroom?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

"Chris R - why can't you spur off a immersion? "

Perhaps I'm wrong - it's one of those things I've "always heard"

So it's an old wives' tale, then...

"note that part P doesn't actually require compliance with the IEE regs "
Surely everything hass to be done in accordance with current regulations?

Not by law, as BS 7671 is not a statutory requirement. What the law (i.e. Part P of the Building Regulations) requires is:

1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.
2. Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety.

And doesn't Part P say that anyone doing eleccy work has to be qualified, even if not in a kitchen/bathroom?

No.

 

[ChrisR]

Niceic say: All domestic electrical installation work, whether professional or DIY, must comply with BS 7671. Failure to comply would leave the installer open to legal action, and liable for any injury, loss or remedial work that may result.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Niceic say: All domestic electrical installation work, whether professional or DIY, must comply with BS 7671.

I say that NICEIC are well known to be a bunch of unprincipled charlatans all too ready to tell self-serving lies.
I say that if you can be bothered you should ask NICEIC to tell you exactly what legislation states that domestic electrical installation work must comply with BS 7671.

Failure to comply would leave the installer open to legal action, and liable for any injury, loss or remedial work that may result.

Not strictly true. Failure to perform safe and competent work that results in injury or loss would leave the installer open to legal action, but he would be prosecuted for negligence, manslaughter or whatever, i.e. because of the unfortunate outcome of his actions. Whilst it goes without saying that in those circumstances his work would not have been BS 7671 compliant, he would not, and could not, be prosecuted for that.

Since most of the world is wired in ways that do not comply with BS 7671, and most of those installations are deemed to be safe, it is self-evident that you can do safe wiring whilst not conforming to BS 7671.

Failure to comply with BS 7671 does not, of itself, leave you open to any legal action, no matter what those goons at NICEIC say.

 

[ChrisR]

I say that NICEIC are well known to be a bunch of unprincipled charlatans all too ready to tell self-serving lies.

Ah. Please excuse the confusion. I thought only CORGI were like that

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Might be where they got the idea....

 

[Spark123]

Niceic say: All domestic electrical installation work, whether professional or DIY, must comply with BS 7671. Failure to comply would leave the installer open to legal action, and liable for any injury, loss or remedial work that may result.

The IEE regs are non-statutory but may, however, be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with a statutory requirement (110-04).

Chris R - why can't you spur off a immersion?

It states in the O.S.G. Appx8 Water heaters fitted to storage vessels in excess of 15 litres capacity...... are to be supplied by their own separate circuit.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The IEE regs are non-statutory but may, however, be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with a statutory requirement (110-04).

Of course they can, Part P being one of those statutory requirements. But that does not make the reverse true - compliance with BS 7671 as proof of compliance with a statutory requirement does not mean that non-compliance with BS 7671 is non-compliance with that statutory requirement.

It states in the O.S.G. Appx8 Water heaters fitted to storage vessels in excess of 15 litres capacity...... are to be supplied by their own separate circuit.

It also says, on the first page of Appendix 8 "Circuit arrangements other than those detailed in this appendix are not precluded when specified by a suitably qualified electrical engineer, in accordance with the general requirements of Regulation 314-01-03".

So:

1) the OSG, which is, after all, only a guide to the wiring regulations, says you can do other things.

2) there is no official or legal definition, in this context, of "a suitably qualified electrical engineer"

3) 314-01-03 requires that the number of final circuits, and the points supplied by them shall be such that the installation meets the requirements of Chapters 43, 46 & 52 - overcurrent protection, isolation & switching and current-carrying capacities of conductors.

so there is no reason why you should not branch off an immersion heater circuit.

Or if you prefer, there is no reason why you should not install a 16A radial, labelled "Bathroom" and designed to supply an immersion heater, a spa bath and a shower pump via 3 BS 1363 FCUs...

 

[dan21mag]

so........ is the legal way forward for me to leave the fuse conn' units in place and let the "p" sparky wire in the integral pumped power shower box on the wall in the bathroom????
Also other shower is aQuartz... so the processor and pump will be in the loft(not special area) so can i wire that 1 myself????

 

[mapj1]

If there is adequate protection or the pumps, there is no reson (if the immersion heater has its own local isolator) not to share a supply, though it would be neater if it did not.
If you are having wirig in the bathroom, although not compulsory, Id recommend RCD protection.
The stuff in the loft you can do, so long as no wiring is in the bathroom.
- in fact you can do all of it, bathroom too, so long as you contact your local council to see at what point they want to inspect it before you start. They will however charge accordingly, but it might still be cheaper than getting a NIC member in for the royal visit part of the procedure. (paradoxically it is more worth DIYing and getting the local authority in, the bigger the job is.)

 

[dan21mag]

Cheers for that map...

The Quartz pump processor in loft has a data cable from it to the shower
control... is that classed as electrics??????