Part-P nonsense

[littleteapot]

As I occasionally do power provision for equipment in telephone exchanges, my employer paid for me to do C&G 2381 and 2391, which I passed.

Recently I wanted to recify some poor wiring (rewired by a 'professional electrician' in 1992) in my house and fit a new consumer unit as the old CU did not have enough ways to comfortably accommodate the number of circuits that now exist.

I knew Part-P would create some complication here so I enquired to the LABC. The chap who responded to my email was very knowledgable and informative, but explained despite having these qualifications and access to the test equipment, and demonstratable experience (albeit in a commercial rather than domestic environment) that I would not be able to sign off my own work as I am not a member of a 'competent persons' scheme.

The options were to either notify LABC before starting work and have them do a first-fix inspection, followed by a test/inspection on completion which would result in a certificate being issued, or to find a 'competent person sheme member' (i.e. a full-time electrician who crosses NICEIC's palm with gold each year) to inspect and sign off, and notify the LABC on completion.

Thankfully I found the latter at a reasonable cost but I suspect he was only willing to do this because I could prove my competence having passed 2381 2391. As has been mentioned on here before, no self-respecting electrician would sign-off an unqualified DIYer's work, even if the DIYer knew BS7671 inside-out.

Anyway, rant over. I was just annoyed that despite being qualified and having experience that I still have to pay someone else to sign-off my work. But I'm glad I can at least give my money to an honest tradesman rather than the Council. And I still have the pride of having completed the job myself using the exact components that I wanted.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would not be able to sign off my own work as I am not a member of a 'competent persons' scheme.

That is true.
It is equally true for practising electricians who do not belong to a self-certification scheme.
It does not mean that you cannot do the work and complete the certificates and schedules for the work.

It means you will not be able to obtain through a scheme the final Certificate of Compliance.
You will have to go through the LABC and they will issue a Certificate of Completion.

Who said it was nonsense?

The options were to either notify LABC before starting work and have them do a first-fix inspection, followed by a test/inspection on completion which would result in a certificate being issued, or to find a 'competent person sheme member' (i.e. a full-time electrician who crosses NICEIC's palm with gold each year) to inspect and sign off, and notify the LABC on completion.

The electrician would have to supervise throughout the work; not just come in when you have finished.

Thankfully I found the latter at a reasonable cost but I suspect he was only willing to do this because I could prove my competence having passed 2381 2391. As has been mentioned on here before, no self-respecting electrician would sign-off an unqualified DIYer's work, even if the DIYer knew BS7671 inside-out.

Quite.

Anyway, rant over. I was just annoyed that despite being qualified and having experience that I still have to pay someone else to sign-off my work. But I'm glad I can at least give my money to an honest tradesman rather than the Council. And I still have the pride of having completed the job myself using the exact components that I wanted.

It is just the way it is.
To self-certify you must belong to a self-certification scheme.

Quite logical really, it's just like signing-off an extension, for example.
You can't do it unless you are a Building Inspector.
Builders are not Building Inspectors.

 

[SimonH2]

But while you cannot self certify, what your C&G qualifications should do is allow you to provide test results that should be accepted by BC. Here in SLDC land, it's (or was last time I looked) about £150 for minor electrics if you can suply acceptable results, and about £225 if you can't - ie about £75 difference, or the cost of getting someone in to do tests for them.

AIUI, BC are legally not allowed to charge for inspections, but it seems they are allowed to set different rates for different levels of inspections needed

So in other words, you should be able to submit a BC notification before starting, and submit the completion notice when you're done - with test results. Then BC should be able to issue you with a completion notice without having any further tests. If they don't then complain that they are being unreasonable.

 

[ericmark]

It depends what you mean by sign off.

There is nothing to stop you inspecting and testing and signing the electrical installation certificate.

But neither you or any other electrician can issue a completion certificate or compliance certificate these can only be issued by the LABC or scheme operator.

In both cases they have the right to come and inspect the electricians work. One would expect it to be by sample method and if the sample passes the testing stops if it does not pass then the inspection goes to a more detailed stage.

With the scheme operators they should be getting work on a regular basis from the same electrician and so can quickly work out how far their testing needs to go to ensure standards are being maintained.

With the LABC they have a big problem in that much of their work will not be for people they know so they have really no idea as to how many corners the electrician may try to cut so their testing should be far greater than the scheme operators testing.

However the main complaint seems to be cost. With the LABC the work is set in bands according to how much job will cost since with DIY labour is clearly free this means in real terms there is only one band the first one which was for the first £2000 worth of work.

So fee is the same for whole house re-wire or fitting a new socket in the kitchen. (In Wales) Plus if they don't fancy doing their own testing they can now charge you to get some one else to test it. So for the very simplest of job say change a single pendent lamp in bathroom for two ceiling mounted units they can charge 10 times the cost of what an electrician who is a scheme member would charge to do the work and register it through his scheme provider.

To be fair the government has tried to remove this from the LABC and to instead permit the scheme provider to do this through their members but most have refused to do the work so it is still down to the LABC in many areas.

It is not only electrics where this has happened I can buy a cherry picker and use it to my hearts content but if I want to hire one I have to take a course and pass an exam and the licence issued has a time constraint so unless used it expires.

There is nothing to stop anyone from starting up a new scheme which offers electricians membership for a very low fee but clearly the scheme operators are there to make money. There were some cheap ones Corgi I seem to remember was one who restricted the size of the job and number of jobs their members could do. Not sure if they are still on the list of scheme operators.

In England the rules have been relaxed and it has produced major problems in working out what one is allowed to do without registering the work. Old Part P said what you were allowed to do, new Part P says what your not allowed to do so there is a problem in defining what the limits are.

We all know the only time people use the LABC is either they have not got a clue so they want some one to check their work or they are selling the house and don't want problems with solicitors by not producing the completion certificate.

I have often wondered if I went to my LABC could they produce copies of the electrical installation certificate showing the extent of work done? Once one has a completion certificate then unless some one pays for copies of the electrical installation certificate you have no idea as to the extent of the work. And there is nothing to say the electrical installation certificate even has to exist.

It's just a DIY tax and nothing more as in real terms once you get one completion certificate you don't need another as no one is ever going to ask the LABC what it covered anyway.

 

[ericmark]

AIUI, BC are legally not allowed to charge for inspections, but it seems they are allowed to set different rates for different levels of inspections needed

That has changed. They can't charge if they do the testing they can charge if they employ a third party to test.

In England the councils could always set their own rates. In Wales there was a fixed rate it was £100 plus vat for first £2000 worth of work I will assume that has risen but it's the Assembly that sets the charges.

 

[littleteapot]

In England the councils could always set their own rates. In Wales there was a fixed rate it was £100 plus vat for first £2000 worth of work I will assume that has risen but it's the Assembly that sets the charges.

My LABC wanted to charge £190+vat.

Thanks everyone for the replies, I learn a little more every day

 

[SimonH2]

In England the rules have been relaxed and it has produced major problems in working out what one is allowed to do without registering the work. Old Part P said what you were allowed to do, new Part P says what your not allowed to do so there is a problem in defining what the limits are.

Being pedantic, it's the schedules to the building regs, Part P just says "installations must be safe" and hasn't changed since 2005. IMO the current rules are simpler than the old ones which had a if this but not that, or if something and not the other, .... about them.

We all know the only time people use the LABC is either they have not got a clue so they want some one to check their work or they are selling the house and don't want problems with solicitors by not producing the completion certificate.

No, there are some of us who want to be squeaky clean - probably not a lot of us though

I have often wondered if I went to my LABC could they produce copies of the electrical installation certificate showing the extent of work done? Once one has a completion certificate then unless some one pays for copies of the electrical installation certificate you have no idea as to the extent of the work. And there is nothing to say the electrical installation certificate even has to exist.

It's just a DIY tax and nothing more as in real terms once you get one completion certificate you don't need another as no one is ever going to ask the LABC what it covered anyway.

Well I intend doing a CU change and add circuits via the BC route.

AIUI, BC are legally not allowed to charge for inspections, but it seems they are allowed to set different rates for different levels of inspections needed

That has changed. They can't charge if they do the testing they can charge if they employ a third party to test.

I did hint that it's a while since I last looked at the situation - but I'll be needing to do something soon.

In England the councils could always set their own rates. In Wales there was a fixed rate it was £100 plus vat for first £2000 worth of work I will assume that has risen but it's the Assembly that sets the charges.

Last time I looked, SLDC have separate charges for minor electrical works - a fixed cost of £150 or £225 (for with or without proper test results). I gather it's different for different authorities, and comments here suggest that some areas charge a minimum of £400

Edit: Just checked, and it's changed slightly.

Re-wiring not covered in the Competent Persons Scheme £240.00
New circuits or consumer unit £150.00
Single socket/light point £90.00

It also notes that all charges are based on the costs of having the work done by a professional - so even if you do the work yourself, they charge you as though you were paying someone. But the minimum fee is £90 for up to £1000 - I wonder if I could lump some other work in and put a CU change and new circuits in the "up to £1k" category at £90 (bet they've got that covered )

 

[ericmark]

Here in Wales old rules still apply so if I plug an extension lead in a socket in my kitchen then it does not require Part P registration however if I tidy up the cable and put cable clips to hold it out of the way and screw it to the wall then it requires Part P registration as now classed as fixed.

It is a complete farce as far as DIY goes. To ensure people who charge for there work have to do work to a set standard and have some form of control to ensure they keep to the set standards makes sense. Part P means prosecution of traders doing sub standard work is easier. But for DIY first catch your monkey.

I stand to be corrected but to date all court cases about Part P are for either claiming to be a member of scheme when they are not or for grossly sub-standard work and I have not seen any cases which involved DIY work.

 

[SimonH2]

Just to add, one of the reasons for going the BC route (apart from not knowing a spark who I'd be happy to let loose at a reasonable price) is that I expect to be doing bit and pieces over some time. I only need one BC notification and can take my time over some of the bits

Of course, the other route is to add stubs for all the new circuits I want, and then extend them as needed - which makes a mockery of the system but that's the way it is.