Part P, The Aftermath

[Pensdown]

Now, that's very interesting. The so-called five-day wonders are scheme members, are they not? In which case, having been assessed and found competent, they have no contact with Building Control at all; this is done via the scheme operator. No EIC details are passed on except the address and a summary of the work..

I read that both ways and in the end assumed that SS was talking about the 5 day wonder courses you see in the paper. The wonder sparks then submit a a notification to BC as SS plans to do?

 

[dingbat]

Despite the fact it has always been necessary to inspect and test your work, prior to forced accountability, some people were not doing so.

Many, even many supposedly qualified people actually thought that it wasn't necessary, even in commercial installations. Some, apparently, still do...

It's not surprising that so many come on here saying things like, "I'm perfectly capable of doing a small job like changing a consumer unit..." and meaning it, when they are blissfully ignorant of the actual requirements.

I'd suggest most of the same argument applies to most notifiable work. Are householders aware of the need to notify structural alterations, window replacement, addition of sanitary fittings, etc? Considering a lot of builders don't know these things it's hardly surprising the average DIY-er thinks that Part P has arrived as if from outer space, when in fact it is exactly in line with all the other building regulations.

 

[CallEdsFirst]

I have to admit, not that I want this to be anything other than a fair debate, but I am more interested in hearing converted electricians than "punters" who don't like having to do things properly.

I can see no problem with COMPETENT DIYers doing their own work, mostly because there plans will get approved by LABC. Those who come in this forum, explain correctly what they intend to do but need clarification on one minor issue before they submit.

I do however get frightened when I hear "Part P is rubbish, anyway, what kind of "wire" to I need?" or "The cable size is 12mm diameter". Although to be fair, at least if they come in here and sound clueless, everyone shouts at them to get a pro in! Its the ones that just fancy their chances and take no advice/do no research that are the most hazardous!

 

[CallEdsFirst]

I'd suggest most of the same argument applies to most notifiable work. Are householders aware of the need to notify structural alterations, window replacement, addition of sanitary fittings, etc? Considering a lot of builders don't know these things it's hardly surprising the average DIY-er thinks that Part P has arrived as if from outer space, when in fact it is exactly in line with all the other building regulations.

How very true! Building Regs are not new! Just the electrical addendum!

 

[Pensdown]

I meant the increase in jobs that get certified because Part P exists, not the extra certificate per job!

So what's wrong with more jobs being certified as safe. Am I missing something?

But, I have to ask, what is the point in all your examples?

If the electrical installation within a domestic property was not part of the Building Regs, BC (or their appointed representative) would not have any way of ensuring that the electrical installation did'nt have an adverse affect on another aspect of the building.

It's a far more coordinated approach. So if you're not a member of a self cert scheme, when you submit a building regs notice BC will look at how the down lights effect the thermal and fire characteristics of the building, how the cable routes will affect the structure etc etc. And if any part of the electrical design adversely effects the building as a whole then they can request changes in the design.

 

[CallEdsFirst]

I meant the increase in jobs that get certified because Part P exists, not the extra certificate per job!

So what's wrong with more jobs being certified as safe. Am I missing something?

But, I have to ask, what is the point in all your examples?

If the electrical installation within a domestic property was not part of the Building Regs, BC (or their appointed representative) would not have any way of ensuring that the electrical installation did'nt have an adverse affect on another aspect of the building.

It's a far more coordinated approach. So if you're not a member of a self cert scheme, when you submit a building regs notice BC will look at how the down lights effect the thermal and fire characteristics of the building, how the cable routes will affect the structure etc etc. And if any part of the electrical design adversely effects the building as a whole then they can request changes in the design.

I never said it was a bad thing, just asked if it was a good thing! Does more paperwork = less deaths? Im not arguing for or against, just asking what peoples thoughts are!

And I find it difficult to believe that when you submit a plan they computer model the effects that your downlighters will have on the thermal characteristics of the roof! They just make sure you aren't proposing to install 200 50W downlighters on a 6a D Type MCB, surely! I bet even more money on the fact that scheme members consider it too much! Only the electrical implications will cross a sparks mind, no matter how good they are! "Sorry mate, 5 is ok, but 6 downlighters will really mess up your U rating!" or "Nope, that load bearing wall is on the border line of being strong enough as it is, no way i'm putting a 6 inch fan in there!"

 

[Pensdown]

If you've got £19.99 to spare I can reccommend this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Electricians-Building-Regulations-Electrical-Dwellings/dp/086341463X

 

[CallEdsFirst]

What's your point? I still can't imagine, even after learning the basics in 5 days for the benefit of a test, electricians struggling with their own issues giving much thought to structural integrity or fireproofing in domestic environments. Hell, according to one post on here, there was even a BCO demanding fire-rated downlighters for vapour barrier purposes!

No more than "Not too many holes in that joist" or "Move the insulation away from the fitting" (which frankly indicates a lack of adherence to BC, as they purposely lower U-value to avoid overheating the fitting!)

 

[Pensdown]

Regardless of what may happen in some circumstances, since the introduction of PP all new electrical installations within domestic dwellings must conform to all parts of the building regs, parts A-P, although some of the regs only apply to new builds

And anybody that takes on electrical work in dwellings without first reading and understanding the implications of all parts of the building regs IMO cannot be classed as competent.

 

[FatGit]

To be honest, and I know people here won't like it, 98% of DIYers won't have heard of it, and of those who have most will ignore it.
And let's be honest, has anyone been prosecuted for breaching it? I'd bet the beak on the bench breaks it as well!
On a more ideological level, as I see it it's my house and what I do to it is up to me and I'm not going to involve the Council if I want to fit a socket in the kitchen and I'm 99% certain I'm going to get away with it.
Furthermore, given that only 10 people a year die from dodgy DIY electrics, this seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There are so many other causes of death that should be tackled first, such as road deaths etc. More people probably die from food poisoning because of a badly cooked tea, yet we don't demand that you have to be a chef to cook it!

Let's face it - people know they will get away with it and will do it, whatever people on here say. I'll bet 90% or more of beaks haven't even heard of it, let alone a case as a result of it. It's like cutting cut-out seals - people on here talk as if you are going to jail for doing it, but in reality the only law seems to be a mythical charge of criminal damage, which again has never been seen.

 

[partpdoctor]

hi all
i have read this thread with interest....

i teach 5 day wonders (part time)and am looking after a bunch of them next week...i am hosting an NICEIC DISQ course.

when they arrive on monday, they will tell me, as always, that they read the forums like this and are pretty hurt by a condescending label such as "5 day wonder"

they know that they are inferior to the real deal and don't pretend otherwise.
they are trying hard to be good guys.
i enjoy looking after them as they come to me without prejudice....you would be surprised how many sparks arrive on a 2391 saying " i have been sparking for 20 years and never tested anything-what a load of b******s this is!"

i honestly would rather look after rookies that most time-served people!

best wishes

 

[Colin_p]

Are householders aware of the need to notify structural alterations, window replacement, addition of sanitary fittings, etc? Considering a lot of builders don't know these things it's hardly surprising the average DIY-er thinks that Part P has arrived as if from outer space, when in fact it is exactly in line with all the other building regulations.

Probably not but most householders wouldn't contemplate such work. For those that do, the information should be easily accessable so informed decisions can be made.

The differece is Part P has very little information specifically relating to the work in hand, it simply refers you to the BS and has a load of useless (unless youe a Part P registered electrician!) forms in it !

Other sections of the regs are a lot more open and have a wealth of information, guidance, tables and diagrams in them, in other words they are useful.

In my opinion Part P should have far more in it than it does and this means if it goes up from 47 pages to 547 pages, so be it.

 

[Pensdown]

they know that they are inferior to the real deal and don't pretend otherwise.
they are trying hard to be good guys.

As far as domestic installation go, I'm not sure who the "real deal" sparks are? I assume your students are talking about the so called qualified sparks that have for years been carrying on with blatant disregard to any regs and the same sparks that now complain about having to buy and learn how to use test kit?

you would be surprised how many sparks arrive on a 2391 saying " i have been sparking for 20 years and never tested anything-what a load of b******s this is!"

Yep, they are old "the real deal" domestic sparks and I do hope that your DISQ students don't aspire to them.

Anyway, slightly off topic

 

[dingbat]

In my opinion Part P should have far more in it than it does and this means if it goes up from 47 pages to 547 pages, so be it.

No, you're wrong again, Colin. How can I make this as simple as possible for you... ?

For all the physical things that affect a building there are regulations, approved practices, etc, which already exist.
These things are well researched by experts and are the subject of specialist areas of expertise. Let me list a few:

Structural Integrity
Fire Safety
Resistance to moisture penetration
Ventilation
Hygiene
Services - water gas, electricity
Drainage & waste disposal
Conservation of energy
Etc...

The Building Regulations, in essence, only require that works which affect any of the above (and more areas besides) are compliant with the already proven and accepted practices. The Building Regulations certainly do not attempt to reinvent the wheel/s.

What they do is state the bare requirements, such as, "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating,maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury." (You may, or may not, recognise that one, because that is all that is required by Part P.) The Approved Documents then offer guidance. Such guidance often takes the form of pointing you at existing regulations such as British Standards: 7671, 5839, 5930, 8103-1, 5618, 8208 (to take a random sample from just three of the approved documents) along with many hundreds of BRE Digests, codes of practice, acts of parliament, etc, etc, etc, etc...

The facts are that buildings, even ordinary dwellings, are complex structures and what you do in yours, today, may affect the safety, utility, or health of owners/occupiers/visitors tomorrow. The Building Regulations have a long history, evolving since 1667, through various public health acts, to finally emerge as The Building Regulations 1965, whereupon technology has heaped change after change on them.

So, you'd incorporate all those references, in full, in every section of The Building Regulations?

It's hard enough for professionals to keep up with the changes, so what chance does the average DIY-er have? With things like electricity a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing. As the (pre-2004) adage had it, "Red to red, black to black, blue to bits."

 

[dingbat]

i honestly would rather look after rookies that most time-served people!

I'm in the same boat, Alan, and I agree with you.