Part P

I don't think Part P will have made any difference to the people it was claimed it was going to stop which was the people had no-clue at all doing VERY dangerous things and endangering lives.
But that claim was disengenuous - the motive for NICEIC and ECA to lobby the government for years for controls on electrical work was to increase their control over the industry.

While it was still in consultation stage it was obvious to anyone with a GCSElevel ability in maths that the data on accidents and expected reduction in them was not a justification for Part P. The whole thing was a sham, put together by people who had either nevr heard of, or didn't understand, cost-benefit analysis.


IMO These people will carry on just as before. They didn't care about regs etc before so why should they now
Yup, and people are not dieing and getting hurt now, just as they were not dieing and getting hurt before


Unless something like Gas Safe was introduced its mostly a waste of time i.e. If you were paid you HAVE to be ElecSafe, if not paid then just competant.

(I will get flamed for the competant comment but hey the Gas guys do it so why not elecy. Just because someone has not taken the 17th edition exams or what ever they are called does not mean they are competant for certain jobs)
Why not?

Well - here's my reasoning.

I do all sorts of DIY, with varying degrees of competence, and for that which I can’t, or don’t want to do, I will use a professional. I’m a good painter and decorator, reasonable-ish carpenter as long as I know my limits, a crap gardener (mostly because of lack of interest), not much of a plumber (mostly because of lack of need to ever develop those skills), I’m a fabulous cook, I don’t do building/plastering/tiling, and, I genuinely believe, I am a perfectly competent electrician.

So yes, there is a great deal of self-interest in my position, but I make no apologies for that because my self-interest is the same as that of millions of other people.

I’m going to start building my case by looking at why people do DIY. As I see it there are 4 main reasons.

1) For enjoyment. Man is a tool-using animal, and there is a great deal of satisfaction to be gained from working with one’s hands to create something, and being able to stand back and say "I did that", particularly for people whose job isn’t like that. Gardening is the classic example of this - it would be a bit odd for someone to make continually rewiring their house or changing the wallpaper a hobby, but gardening is something that millions of people do for pleasure, and spend a lot of time doing it. But it is a form of DIY - they could always get a gardener to do it for them, and have the same end result to admire, but they choose to DIY because they enjoy it.

2) To save money. Pretty self evident.

3) To get a better job done. I’m not claiming that all DIYers will always do a better job than any professional, that would be ludicrous, as anybody who’d ever seen my bricklaying would be quick to point out. But there are times when a DIYer will achieve better results because of the amount of time they can lavish on a job. It’s often related to #2 - time is money, and there will be instances where someone for whom that is not true can do a better job than someone for whom it is. Take painting for example. The amount of work involved in, say, preparing a wooden window for repainting, particularly if it’s got lots of small panes, and decorative mouldings is huge. Nobody could make an economic proposition based around charging for doing it if they were truly going to do it as thoroughly as possible.

4) Convenience. There are times when the best way to get a job done is the 8AM start, bish-bosh all day long approach of the pro, and there are times when that level of disruption is unwelcome. Decorating is one example – DIYing at evenings and weekends will for sure take longer, but it will also be a lot less intrusive and disruptive to daily routine.

However, we do, of course, have to moderate the above for safety and community interest reasons. You can’t let anybody who knows how to mix mortar throw up whatever construction they want – you have to ensure that it is structurally sound, that it fits into planning rules etc etc. Even with gardening we’ve seen how regulation is needed to deal with the menace of Leylandii, and how H&S concerns have justifiable restrictions on what chemicals can be used and so on.

But in all instances it is the responsibility of Government to impose as light a touch as possible, and to only intervene when there is a compelling reason to do so. GAS SAFE regulations are often used as a parallel when arguing about Part P, but ironically the Gas Regs don’t prohibit DIY gas work, as long as it is “competently” done. I’ve never done anything with gas appliances apart from plugging a cooker into a bayonet fitting, so I don’t know how reasonable it is for a DIYer to acquire the necessary knowledge and skills, but I do know the following:

1) The potential for a catastrophic disaster with gas is much higher. Faulty electrical work might result in someone getting a shock, faulty gas work might result in a whole household dying in their sleep. A dodgy electrical connection might result in a small fire, and yes, I do realise that small fires can become large ones. A dodgy gas connection might result in an explosion, and there is no such thing as a small gas explosion.

I don’t know how many problems arise from non-GAS SAFE gas work, nor what percentage of them are due to work that should have been done by a registered person as opposed to genuine DIY work that went wrong, but unless it can be shown that DIY work is a major problem I’d say that the rules were about right.

2) Gas is much less pervasive and much more static in people’s homes than electricity. By that I mean that there are millions of houses where there are but one or two gas appliances (boiler & cooker), once installed they remain there for several years – longer, one hopes, if they’re well made. They don’t get moved about, or frequently replaced as part of a makeover. Gas pipes do not run throughout the house, and they don’t very often need rerouting. People don’t want to add the ability to control their gas cooker from two places. They don’t have gas lights that they’d like to replace with some stainless steel ones they bought in B&Q. They don’t want to run gas out to the garden and the shed to power lights, fountains and tools.

In short, there is nothing like the same need for people to make changes to their gas installation as there is with their electrical one. Restricting DIY electrical work is hugely more invasive than restricting DIY gas work.

3) Gas appliances are expensive, and in proportion to the cost of the item, the cost of paying a GAS SAFE registered person to install a condensing boiler is a great deal less, and therefore a great deal more reasonable to impose, than the comparative situation of having to pay a professional electrician to install a socket costing a couple of pounds. In the first case the labour costs are less than the cost of the item, in the second they are 10 or 20 times more.


Given that the impact of restrictions on DIY electrical work will therefore be felt by a very large number of people, and will have significant financial impact on a very large number of people, it is vital that there should be a compelling reason to implement restrictions.

In all activities that we fallible people undertake, there are risks, and the rules to moderate these activities in order to reduce the risks must be balanced against the costs, both financial and in terms of individual liberty. For example, on average around 10 people a day are killed on the roads in this country. The government rightly seeks to minimise road casualties by making drivers pass a test, imposing limits on how fast people are allowed to drive, how much alcohol they can drink, where they can drive, where they can park, how safe a condition their vehicle must be in and so on. They also encourage and force car manufacturers to make their products safer. They spend millions on public awareness campaigns. But could anyone argue that they could not achieve a dramatic reduction in casualties by imposing a blanket 20mph speed limit? By an outright ban on driving cars when there is fog, or ice and snow? By raising the minimum driving age to 30? By banning the sale and use of motorcycles? All of these measures would undoubtedly save lives, but none of them would be introduced.

Why? Because their impact would be too severe. However rational a case you can make for banning motorcycles, ultimately you can’t deny people that choice. The limits on personal mobility, choice of lifestyle, choice of job – all items of fundamental importance to individual liberty would be immense if you restricted people to travelling at 20mph, or staying at home for days or weeks at a time in winter. The impact on the economy would be catastrophic.

Ladders. In 1999, about 28,000 people were killed or injured falling from ladders and steps in the home. We could probably save quite a few lives, and a lot of economic costs, if we banned the use of ladders & steps. Would anybody be up for that? Would preventing people from changing their own lamps, painting their own houses, using their lofts etc be a price worth paying in order to save lives, or would it be an unwarranted intrusion?

It is often claimed that people are at risk from poor workmanship, but when asked to show produce evidence of that a typical reply is:

“Why should we need to? It’s pretty obvious that electrically unskilled persons work can put people in danger.”

Can yes, but do? I’m afraid the evidence does have to be produced, for in a free society restrictions on people’s freedoms cannot be imposed on the basis of “It’s pretty obvious” – you must be able to show that there is a severe problem.

I don’t want to be stopped from doing something that I find satisfying, I don’t want to have to pay 10-20x the cost of materials for someone to fit them, I don’t want to have to organise my domestic schedule around the efficiency needs of a tradesman when I need something done. And I suspect that neither do millions of others.

I’m not saying that no dangerous work is done – I’m saying that before you reduce my quality of life, and forcibly increase my financial outlay, and damage the business of companies that sell electrical products, you must, absolutely must, show that the amount of dangerous work is so great that it cannot be tolerated, and just like I’m not free to drive while I’m ****ed, or at 100mph down the High Street, I can’t be free to do my own wiring.
 
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IMO These people will carry on just as before. They didn't care about regs etc before so why should they now
Yup, and people are not dieing and getting hurt now, just as they were not dieing and getting hurt before
I disagree, on the following counts.

1. People do get hurt and do die from domestic electrical accidents. Even allowing for a gross misreporting of electrical fires, where in truth the cause is indeterminate, accidents do happen.

2. There can be a considerable time lag between creating a hazard by incompetent working and an accident or a fire occurring.

3. There can be a considerable time lag between a tightening of the regulations and a tangible result from an aggregate improvement in safe working practices.

So I think people were getting hurt before, and are still getting hurt. Whether or not the rate has decreased, and whether or not it will decrease, is something that I don't know how to measure.
 
Use another site for plumbing questions; you can't trust the "experts" on this one not to lie to you
That's somewhat inaccurate and unfair - there are plenty of experts who don't lie on the plumbing forum, it's just that the moderators aren't strict enough with the ones who do.
 
I disagree, on the following counts.

1. People do get hurt and do die from domestic electrical accidents. Even allowing for a gross misreporting of electrical fires, where in truth the cause is indeterminate, accidents do happen.

2. There can be a considerable time lag between creating a hazard by incompetent working and an accident or a fire occurring.

3. There can be a considerable time lag between a tightening of the regulations and a tangible result from an aggregate improvement in safe working practices.

So I think people were getting hurt before, and are still getting hurt. Whether or not the rate has decreased, and whether or not it will decrease, is something that I don't know how to measure.
Sorry for the lack of precision.

I'll submit this as a revised version.

IMO These people will carry on just as before. They didn't care about regs etc before so why should they now
Yup, and people are not dieing and getting hurt in significant numbers now because of faults in fixed wiring, just as they were not dieing and getting hurt in significant numbers because of faults in fixed wiring before.
 
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I very often have issue with BAS's morals or treatment of other people, but I must say I thought that article was rather good.
 
I agree, BAS your post was absolutely spot on!

The DIYr will often make a damn better job than an electrician who is only there for a few hours, because the DIYr has to live with it.

The assumption that all DIY work is dangerous is wrong.

Some DIY work is bad/dangerous etc (and I as a DIYr have found plenty of evidence of it) but have still not actually been killed by it (be a bit hard to type this if I had) yet plenty of DIY work is also of a much higher standard than that done by so called professionals.

Part P is being ignored by many, myself included becuase of the cost.

Why should I pay my local council over £100 just because I am doing some DIY improvements to the electrics in my house?
Paying them wont make the installation any safer, it wont make it any better - it will just mean that some parts of the electrical installation in my house (the bits that were done before I bought it) will stay as dangerous as they were.
You can find my thread about the wiring in the kitchen as an example, it was dangerous as I nearly drilled into the ring main, I couldn't now because I have moved it to within safe zones.

Every time I come across some bit of bad electrical work (and I found another today) I correct it, even if it requires replacing a complete ring circuit (done that too) and I will be damned if I'm paying my council for the privilege.

(Before you ask, the Bro in law is a qualified electrician yet not part p approved - so I can get any relevant bits tested).
 
I, too, enjoyed the post, and for that reason I didn't comment (much). But since the debate** is possibly about to re-launch, there are some points I'l make now.

1. Invasiveness
Given that the impact of restrictions on DIY electrical work will therefore be felt by a very large number of people, and will have significant financial impact on a very large number of people, it is vital that there should be a compelling reason to implement restrictions.
This sounds right, but is it? Does Part P constitute a restriction? I thought it just added a cost to having work done, rather than restricted it.

For example, if adding a circuit cost £300 on 31st December 2004, then adding the same circuit on 1st January 2005 would cost £300 + the LABC fee. This might be a disproportionate cost for small jobs, but the larger the job, the smaller the, er, disproportion. The same, non-registered but competent, contractor can do the work in both cases - there would just be a short statutory delay after submitting the building notice.

2. Cost
I don’t know how many problems arise from non-GAS SAFE gas work, nor what percentage of them are due to work that should have been done by a registered person as opposed to genuine DIY work that went wrong, but unless it can be shown that DIY work is a major problem I’d say that the rules were about right.
This is more about perception of cost, rather than actual cost. For example, few people even entertain the idea of working out the Total Cost of Ownership of a gas boiler - it's all about how much it costs now.

How would 15 years of boiler ownership (i.e. purchase, servicing and repairs) stack up against a complete re-wire over the same period? Bear in mind that some 'modern' boilers are costing owners more than the original appliance purchase price for repairs outside the warranty period but still within its expected working life.

3. The whole cost/benefit thing.
Some would argue that even one live saved justified the cost of the entire Building Regulations / LABC / Part P machine.

In terms of the cost to the country, clearly this is a false statement, but what's the price of a human life, and who ratifies that?

Here's a question:- have you read the documented reasons for introducing the notification requirement Part P? I haven't, so I confess to not knowing the reasons. Possibly, if the people making the decisions were well informed and trustworthy, it's a sensible decision with an impact beyond what we're envisioning.

As a wild example, if it were known to Parliament that all new houses were to be timber-framed, and that this constituted a hugely increased risk of death and destruction that could be mitigated by Part P, then would it not be a wise and prudent decision to create the mechanism now, and change public perception, and increase professional education and training? To build the bridge before allowing traffic onto the motorway?

___________

** By debate, I mean the type without the idiots who think that writing "end of" is a good way of making a strong point. If they turn up, I'm off.
 
I very often have issue with BAS's morals or treatment of other people, but I must say I thought that article was rather good.

Have to agree, the regulatory bodies lobbied the government for years because they knew the financial returns would be enormous ;)
 
1. Invasiveness
Given that the impact of restrictions on DIY electrical work will therefore be felt by a very large number of people, and will have significant financial impact on a very large number of people, it is vital that there should be a compelling reason to implement restrictions.
This sounds right, but is it? Does Part P constitute a restriction? I thought it just added a cost to having work done, rather than restricted it.
It is right, because it's not an argument against Part P, but against the suggestion that more draconian controls be introduced without a clear and compelling case, such as making it illegal for any DIY electrical work to be done, and illegal for businesses to sell electrical items to unqualified people.


For example, if adding a circuit cost £300 on 31st December 2004, then adding the same circuit on 1st January 2005 would cost £300 + the LABC fee. This might be a disproportionate cost for small jobs, but the larger the job, the smaller the, er, disproportion. The same, non-registered but competent, contractor can do the work in both cases - there would just be a short statutory delay after submitting the building notice.
Indeed, but what if you could no longer buy even a BS1363 plug, let alone a socket for it to go into, and had to get an electrician to supply and fit one? And yes, I have seen restrictions of that severity advocated in the past.

2. Cost
I don’t know how many problems arise from non-GAS SAFE gas work, nor what percentage of them are due to work that should have been done by a registered person as opposed to genuine DIY work that went wrong, but unless it can be shown that DIY work is a major problem I’d say that the rules were about right.
This is more about perception of cost, rather than actual cost. For example, few people even entertain the idea of working out the Total Cost of Ownership of a gas boiler - it's all about how much it costs now.
Err - that quote wasn't under my cost heading, but what you say about the headline installation cost agrees with my point about the relative proportionality of the cost of gas controls vs electric. A good quality condensing boiler can easily cost about £1K, so a few hundred on top of that for installing it is relatively a lot less than a few hundred on top of a CU costing a tenth the price of the boiler. If you consider the installation costs compared to the whole-life TCO of a boiler and a CU then the relative differences become even more stark.

So even where we have an environment where tougher controls would lead to relatively small cost increases, we don't impose them - DIY gas boiler installation is not illegal per se.

How would 15 years of boiler ownership (i.e. purchase, servicing and repairs) stack up against a complete re-wire over the same period? Bear in mind that some 'modern' boilers are costing owners more than the original appliance purchase price for repairs outside the warranty period but still within its expected working life.
Bear in mind too that since the Gas Regulations made registration compulsory for anyone doing gas work for reward, we may have seen a decline in fires and explosions, but we have also seen an increase in CO2 poisoning incidents. Is that due to the increased costs of servicing, or the increased costs of replacing old boilers? Don't know, but it's not beyond possibility.

3. The whole cost/benefit thing.
Some would argue that even one live saved justified the cost of the entire Building Regulations / LABC / Part P machine.

In terms of the cost to the country, clearly this is a false statement, but what's the price of a human life, and who ratifies that?
Actually there are ways of working that out, as callous as it may seem, but even if you don't do it formally it should be intuitively obvious that the idea of "safety at any price" doesn't work, and there does have to be a value placed on a human life, and the cost of any measures designed to save lives looked at to see if the cost is "worth it".

If it isn't intuitively obvious to any one, consider these:

Straight financial costs:

A cure has been discovered for a rare disease which kills about 3 people a year in this country. Unfortunately the cost of the treatment is very high, and the basic rate of income tax will have to be increased by 10p in order to raise the approximate £20 billion needed each year. Nobody should complain -after all, how can you put a price on a human life?


Social costs:

Studies have shown that a healthier lifestyle will reduce overall public spending on healthcare and related services, even allowing for increased longevity and decreased revenues from duty on alcohol and tobacco. Public awareness campaigns and encouragement have not produced a big enough change in people's behaviour.

Accordingly the Government announced today that the following measures are to be introduced:

Tobacco and ethanol are to be reclassified as Class A drugs. The manufacture, sale, consumption, possession or importation of these substances or products containing them will be an offence punishable by at least 20 years imprisonment. All employers will be obliged to carry out daily screening of all their employees to detect the use of tobacco and alcohol. Failure to report employees who test positive will also be a criminal offence punishable by a fine equal to the previous 5 years profit of the company and imprisonment of the HR director for a minimum of 20 years.

The law will apply to UK citizens whilst abroad, and people will be tested at ports of entry on their return. Foreign nationals entering the country who test positive will not be subject to penalties, but they will be required to choose between being refused entry and entering a period of quarantine where they will be detained in a secure facility and monitored until they test clear. They will be required to meet the costs of quarantine and testing themselves.

All cars are to be fitted with GPS tracking systems and secure recording equipment, and logs of all journeys will be analaysed by the Government. Any journey of less than 2 miles, unless made by a registered disabled person will result in immediate confiscation of the vehicle and a ban on ownership of any vehicle for 10 years.

Refined sugars and fats are to be heavily taxed at source, and increased VAT added to foods where more than a certain percentage of their calories come from fats or added sugar. The exact details have yet to be announced, but it is expected that the price of a Mars Bar, for example, will rise to £5, and a Double Whopper with cheese, large fries and a large Coke to between £30 and £40.

And so on and so forth - you get the picture - there comes a point where the social disruption of controls, even if they save lives, becomes intolerable.


Here's a question:- have you read the documented reasons for introducing the notification requirement Part P? I haven't, so I confess to not knowing the reasons. Possibly, if the people making the decisions were well informed and trustworthy, it's a sensible decision with an impact beyond what we're envisioning.
I have - I'll see if I can dig up a link.


As a wild example, if it were known to Parliament that all new houses were to be timber-framed, and that this constituted a hugely increased risk of death and destruction that could be mitigated by Part P, then would it not be a wise and prudent decision to create the mechanism now, and change public perception, and increase professional education and training? To build the bridge before allowing traffic onto the motorway?
I'd want to be convinced that there were solid evidential and analytical justifications.
 
It is right, because it's not an argument against Part P, but against the suggestion that more draconian controls be introduced without a clear and compelling case, such as making it illegal for any DIY electrical work to be done, and illegal for businesses to sell electrical items to unqualified people.
Ah, OK. Clearly I'd entirely missed the point. I get it now.

Indeed, but what if you could no longer buy even a BS1363 plug, let alone a socket for it to go into, and had to get an electrician to supply and fit one? And yes, I have seen restrictions of that severity advocated in the past.
Oy gevalt. :(
 
For the readers of 1984 you have missed out thought police.

BAS has a very valid point.

What I feel is why should there be more restrictions to people working on electrical systems in Domestic then there is with Non domestic? This does not make sense. One can get injured by Electricity at work just as easy as Electricity in the home and all that was really needed was to extend the Electricity at work act to include domestic.

Nothing much wrong with the idea of Part P but loads wrong with how it has be implemented.

When my dad was an apprentice one had strong unions with closed shop and if you were a bad boy you lost your union card and could no longer work. This has now been replaced by another form of Union being the organizations who oversee Part P. It is a back door to re-introduce the closed shop. I am not saying I am totally against closed shop. But being a member of ELECSA or any of the others is just the same as being a member of a Union and so one must ask the question is it legal?

Because of the LABC route it is not a totally closed shop and there is a way non members can work. But now we come to big point "Price".

I can't see how anyone can reasonable charge more for inspection and testing than it costs to do the job. We have seen all the fuss about unfair bank charges and there is no difference to unfair local authority charges where to fit a socket in a kitchen is going to cost £100 plus to get it tested.

If Part P is going to work the charges must be reasonable. However if they were no sole trader would want to join one of the Unions.

We have seen a great improvement in electrical work since Part P. Much of the sub-standard work was due to companies realizing they could get away with it and most was not dangerous as such. Like not providing as built plans.

But a simple driving license type system where you passed exams to get it and if you got over the permitted points you lost it would have done exactly the same with a fraction of the cost.

It seems from what my MP tells me it is being changed and the charges are to be made more realistic but the Labour government have said many things which did not happen. So not holding my breath.
 
We have seen a great improvement in electrical work since Part P.
Where? Certainly not any of the installations I have seen.

Most of the work I do is domestic.
A substantial majority of the customers I visit have not heard of Part P at all.
Most of those that have don't understand what it means. The usual 'understanding' is either:
1. they can't do any electrical work themselves at all, so must get an electrician to do everything.
2. they can do whatever they like, provided they get an electrician in afterwards to 'sign it off'.

None of this is helped by the DIY sheds which continue to sell consumer units, electric showers, kits to provide power to your garden shed, 500W floodlights and many other items with little or no indication that fitting them without notifying LABC is illegal.

My view is that:
Most professional electricians have joined one of the schemes
Cowboys and the like carry on just as before. Very few are prosecuted.
DIY persons are largely unaware and won't pay the LABC fees even if they do know the correct procedure. Even those that want to pay the fee and do things properly are likely to find all kinds of barriers such as some LABCs wanting to charge extra for testing, demanding certificates with test results are provided, or suggesting that they get an electrician to do the work instead.
 

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