Party Wall Extension alongside Extension/Convervatory

[phishulus]

Hi all, we're due to start building a kitchen extension at the end of the month, plans all approved last December.

We'll be knocking down our current kitchen (already an extension) and building further out to the end of the neighbour's extension and conservatory - conservatory added on to extension.

Our neighbour popped round on Sunday and asked for a party wall agreement as she'd spoken to her father who said we would need one, and as the works are due to start soon and we didn't want to delay things, we panicked and issued one under section 6, thinking just to be on the safe side after reading some advice that building control could advise to excavate deeper and we'd be below theirs.

The neighbour has been back around today saying that they are not happy to sign as we've said we won't underpin their foundations. The main issue seems to be the conservatory. There is planning permission for the kitchen (1981), no planning for the conservatory extended off that (been there at least 14 years according to Google Street View) - she even called it a "temporary" structure - and she said it may have been placed on top of a patio base, rather than having proper foundations.

We're not in dispute yet, they've agreed to not sign a disagreement, and agreed to us digging a trial hole to check their foundation depth, but it's raining right now, typical.

So it looks like we do need the PWA after all, as the conservatory is clearly not built to any proper building regulations, and we'll almost certainly be excavating further down - but will find out for sure when we dig trial holes, and will also check their extension depth too.

If we do indeed discover that they don't have sufficient/any foundations for the conservatory, will we be expected to pay for ensuring their conservatory does not collapse when we start excavating? Would building control have any concerns about their "temporary" not temporary conservatory, or has it been too long since it was built, even though it may not be on proper foundations/meet regs?

Oh, and they also asked for a written agreement for how far our extension roof will be away from their, but, even though they insisted it is, is not covered by any PWA as the extension will be - as currently is - entirely on our land, with a gap between the two.

Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks.

 

[mrrusty]

Perhaps explain that disagreeing to sign the PWA doesn't stop the work eventually going ahead, doesn't change the risk of any potential damage, and doesn't limit the OPs responsibility to remedy any damage caused by the works, which of course OP would agree to do anyway as a nice neighbour. I would explain to the neighbour that the only difference is you can do the build the friendly way, taking every precuation not to cause any issues, or the non-co-operative way. If the neighbour gets arsey now and insists on expensive surveyors, you will be equally arsey if there is any damage caused and neighbour will be forced to jump through all the legal hoops to get a remedy, rather than having everything sorted in a friendly manner. Better to talk than go legal every time.

 

[^woody^]

Not responding to a served notice by the due date is a disagreement by default, and surveyors need to be involved.

Once served, a PW Notice can not be withdrawn.

Building regulations have nothing to do with party wall matters and a conservatory or suchlike, however badly built or whatever regulations applied for it still falls under the PW Act if it has foundations of any sort - which it will have.

The only way out of it, is perhaps to check if the notice you served is in fact valid. Or perhaps if the work changes to make the notice invalid. But even then you may well find that your work does require a notice to be served in any case. Some people may not serve a notice and quickly dig out and pour the foundations before the neighbours have time to react. But the risk is whether the neighbours are prepared to apply for an injunction or not.

 

[phishulus]

Hi Rusty,
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I don't think they will agree to sign anything, they seem pretty convinced that a surveyor is required. I've already explained that it won't stop the work going ahead, and we'd still be liable for any damage, and building inspectors would be on site to check the work when it starts. They mentioned PWA and builder's insurance if there's any subsidence, but from what I've read, this won't change the fact that we would be required to put things right if any damage occurs.

Obviously I understand their concerns, and neither of us want any issues occurring on either side, and wouldn't expect any if they were having an extension either.

Are there likely to be any concerns with excavating near their property? Would any special considerations be needed to protect their structure if it does not have appropriate foundations? Would building control insist on this anyway when the work is carried out? If we can resolve this without surveyors, that would be great, and we'd like to keep on friendly terms with them.

Thanks

 

[phishulus]

Hi Woody,
Yeah I feel that this does require PWA anyway, will find out for sure when we dig some trial holes and check the foundation depth - when we get a little less rain. Unless building control were happy excavating to the depth of the conservatory I don't think we can invalidate it

I'm not trying to get out of it, and I did read that it can't be withdrawn - no problem. We've got 12 days til a dispute is raised, if they do not sign in disagreement before then.

And thanks for clarifying that, so if their foundations on the conservatory are less than ours (likely by the sounds of it) then it will be required.

 

[mrrusty]

they seem pretty convinced that a surveyor is required

If you issue a PWA and it is agreed, no surveyor is required, both parties are still covered, the developer is still liable, so this is what to focus on. Tell your neighbour you agree that a PWA is needed but ask them what they think they will achieve by using a surveyor? You can then point out to them that if they are going to play hardball, in the event of any issues, you will play equal hardball and make them jump through all the legal hoops to get to the point where you compensate them for any damage, that you would agree anyway if they take the neighbourly approach!

Pragmatic cooperation is always going to be an easier ride than confrontation.

 

[^woody^]

If you issue a PWA and it is agreed, no surveyor is required, both parties are still covered, the developer is still liable, so this is what to focus on. Tell your neighbour you agree that a PWA is needed but ask them what they think they will achieve by using a surveyor? You can then point out to them that if they are going to play hardball, in the event of any issues, you will play equal hardball and make them jump through all the legal hoops to get to the point where you compensate them for any damage, that you would agree anyway if they take the neighbourly approach!

Pragmatic cooperation is always going to be an easier ride than confrontation.

From the neighbour's perspective or anyone served a PW notice, they would be foolhardy to agree.

The logical thing to do, to protect the interests of your property and use of it, would be to dissent and involve professionals to define the works and how they will be carried out. After all, it's all free and may lead to compensation.

Ive often wondered if agreeing to a Notice could invalidate home insurance or reduce cover, as the insured is always obligated to mitigate their risk.

 

[Nakajo]

It would be neat if the Act somehow promoted the 'agreed surveyor' route - perhaps if the neighbour was obliged to meet a portion of the cost of engaging their own surveyor.

 

[wessex101]

If the excavations for the new foundation trench are close to the neighbour's conservatory with very shallow foundations then probably the easiest way to avoid undermining the conservatory is dig the new foundation in 1 metre long alternating bays, like traditional underpinning.

 

[mrrusty]

involve professionals to define the works and how they will be carried out.

Personally, I'd trust a decent builder overseen by building control over a "party wall surveyor" anyday. https://www.ipws.co.uk/training-course#:~:text=No formal qualifications are necessary,a CV summarising their experience.&text=After successfully completing the One,of Party Wall Surveyors IPWS.

I love the quote "no formal qualifications are necessary" (to become a PWS)

 

[^woody^]

overseen by building control

Like Grenfell was "overseen" by building control?

 

[^woody^]

It would be neat if the Act somehow promoted the 'agreed surveyor' route - perhaps if the neighbour was obliged to meet a portion of the cost of engaging their own surveyor.

It does. It's exactly the same as CPR at court, where a single expert is preferred, but in the interests of fairness and avoiding bias, single experts can be used.

And why should one neighbour have to pay purely for work that his neighbour wants which is of no need or benefit to him?

 

[^woody^]

I love the quote "no formal qualifications are necessary" (to become a PWS)

You don't need any formal qualification to become any surveyor, engineer, or any designer of buildings. Why should a PW surveyor be any different?

 

[phishulus]

From the neighbour's perspective or anyone served a PW notice, they would be foolhardy to agree.

Yeah, can't say I would blame anyone for not agreeing, if that's all they need to do to get a surveyor and it won't cost them anything.

I love the quote "no formal qualifications are necessary" (to become a PWS)

Reassuring

And why should one neighbour have to pay purely for work that his neighbour wants which is of no need or benefit to him?

Fair, wouldn't be happy if my neighbour had me pay towards a surveyor if it was for their benefit.

You don't need any formal qualification to become any surveyor, engineer, or any designer of buildings. Why should a PW surveyor be any different?

Also reassuring

If the excavations for the new foundation trench are close to the neighbour's conservatory with very shallow foundations then probably the easiest way to avoid undermining the conservatory is dig the new foundation in 1 metre long alternating bays, like traditional underpinning.

Oh I think I read another post somewhere that suggested that. Or on guidance somewhere. Is that laying foundations in shorter sections at a time, rather than one big trench? So not necessarily underpinning required?


Ok, so it's a funny afternoon, finishing work shortly so will start digging and see what we find. Just dig deep enough til I can see the bottom of the footings? Then do I leave it open, push the stuff back in, or does it need proper filling - I'd assume not if it will soon be excavated for foundations anyway.

 

[phishulus]

Sunny afternoon even, not a funny one