Party wall notice questions

[masamune]

I have some questions on Party Wall notices for a rear (rectangular) extension on a 3 bed semi. The property has a side alley leading to a garage that will be demolished to form a patio.

Before serving the notices I am going to discuss my plans with the neighbours to assess their intentions.

For the attached neighbour Mr.A I am going to serve two notices,
a. notice of adjacent excavation (3 meters)
b. Line of junction notice.

For the line of junction I am going to include both notices, 1. new wall astride to the boundary, to use some more room. If that is rejected I will fall back to 2. new wall adjacent to the boundary.

There will be no work directly on the party wall itself.

For neighbour Mr.B of the adjacent property, we are separated by an alley with a width of about 3 meters. At first I was confused when someone pointed out there may be no requirement to serve them notice of Adjacent Excavation.
On second thought and further reading, I believe the footings of the foundations may fall within that distance under the ground. I would appreciate some advice on this, obviously less PW notices is better but prefer to be on the safe side. I will post a structural plan and a sketch when I have it in the next day or so.

On a side note, I was told that surveyors follow planning applications and spam the neighbours with letters to represent them. I want to approach and reassure my neighbours that every care will be taken. A builder with all the appropriate insurances will undertake the works. and cover any damages. Of course I cannot prevent them from deciding to go with surveyors, especially when I will be the one bearing the costs...

 

[masamune]

Added a simple drawing of the extension and either side properties, pasting in the foundation plans (sorry for the ugliness). Footing inset on top right hand corner.



In the meantime I have done a bit more reading, but still have questions and want to make sure neighbours receive the correct information.

The good news is that Mr.A although elderly, is quite happy to sign the forthcoming notice.

To my understanding a wall astride the boundary line means that the outer brick layer of my 300mm wall will rest on the centre of the boundary line. Is this correct?

In the structural plan Mr.A's side, it appears as the entire wall on the footing (short dotted lines) sits in boundary centre (long dotted line). Unless this is just a drawing approximation it looks wrong. Keeping that on one side are there any negative implications building astride the boundary? I am happy to go either way.

Mr.A has one condition though, he loves his garden and would not like me damaging his plants. And although I am not planning to, an obvious issue is that he has a climbing rose for 20 years right behind the current fence where my wall and foundations will be built !!

Time to speak to the gardener but I cannot imagine how to help things while doing this work...


Next question, the footing obviously protrudes on either side underground. Can this be adjusted, i.e is there room to play with the footing and confine within the outer line of your walls? Can the footing protrude under neighbour's land? It seems that on Mr.A side this is less.

The reason I want to know is for Mr.B on the left. If the footing goes under the alley the excavation falls within the 3m distance line and as mentioned above I believe he needs a PW notice too. These are 1930s properties and I can only assume that foundations are empirically shallower to 1m which new builds follow.


Last I wanted to know if both neighbours are happy and sign the notices, can my builder carry out the surveys?

Thanks!

 

[masamune]

Ok, the more I am searching on this the more troublesome it sounds.

I am reading a mix of older posts and gathered that building astride the boundary means after all that the cavity will be in the middle, thus the outer leaf of the wall fully on neighbours side. That means structure plan is correct and 150mm into neighbour side.

Is my post unclear or answered already? Pls point out any threads I missed because I have not found a clear answer to this.

I also read that PWA aside I may need to sort out the title of the property against future dispute and also a chance of falling outside of permitted development. I this true??

I have a doubt that the neighbour would be happy with this after all. But let's assume they agree and sell the property in the future. Can a new owner bring up a dispute and on what grounds?

any advice would be much appreciated before discussing the notice with them!

 

[^woody^]

Bullet point the questions.

You do know that the neighbour needs to be compensated, and you can't just build on his land?

 

[masamune]

Bullet point the questions.

Thanks, good point. As per the plan in my post I am considering an extension wall astride the boundary with Mr.A. My original understanding seems flawed...

• does the wall cavity have to be in the middle of boundary line?
• any issues arising with planning for PD?
• does this affect the titles, any other issues in the future?

• do I need to give PW notice to Mr. B for projecting the footing part of foundations within 3m distance?

You do know that the neighbour needs to be compensated, and you can't just build on his land?

Can you explain further? I thought the LoJ notice for a wall astride the boundary covered this if they concented. And the new wall form a PW with mutual ownership...

 

[^woody^]

A wall astride the boundary must be central. It becomes a party wall with shared ownership, so if the neighbour is entiled to use it jointly, then it stands to reason that he should have half of it to use.

Planning and PW issues are distinct. You will need to apply for the correct planning permission, and serve the relevent notices for building on land owned by others. You can't use PD.

The ownership/responsibility of the wall should be incorporated into both property deeds. Particularly the boundary position.

Yes you need to serve notice for footings to cross the boundary, but they can't be reinforced. It may also be that this is refused too, requiring you to use a different design.

You can only build astride the boundary if the neighbour expressly agrees. In which case, there is invariably compensation involved for the loss of his land, use of it. And the costs of the legal documentation.

If the neighbour does not agree, then the wall must remain on your side of the boundary.

 

[RichA]

Why not move the wall so that it is up to the boundary, rather than astride.

 

[masamune]

A wall astride the boundary must be central. It becomes a party wall with shared ownership, so if the neighbour is entiled to use it jointly, then it stands to reason that he should have half of it to use..

Thank you for replying again. Noted and it all makes sense now. It was a technicality about the wall layout that confused me.

Planning and PW issues are distinct. You will need to apply for the correct planning permission, and serve the relevent notices for building on land owned by others. You can't use PD..

I didn't know this. So this falls outside of PD and therefore my submitted planning application would not work anyway. What kind of notices are we talking about?

The ownership/responsibility of the wall should be incorporated into both property deeds. Particularly the boundary position..

Sounds like a lot of trouble for the extra room. I don't think I want to put my old neighbour in so much trouble. Thinking to give up on this option...

Yes you need to serve notice for footings to cross the boundary, but they can't be reinforced. It may also be that this is refused too, requiring you to use a different design..

I think my question was misunderstood. This is about the other side neighbour across the alley on the left. Footing underground will project within the 3m distance, not the wall though. But based on the guide for PW plans I see a footing to footing measurement and probably have to notify excavations...

You can only build astride the boundary if the neighbour expressly agrees. In which case, there is invariably compensation involved for the loss of his land, use of it. And the costs of the legal documentation..

This where I am confused. I suppose that while the neighbour is not encroaching the wall for a building on their side the above is true. But if the wall is of equal party ownership under agreement then why do I have to bear all the costs? And what happens if the neighbour build an extension afterwards? (highly unlikely but assume new owner)

 

[masamune]

Why not move the wall so that it is up to the boundary, rather than astride.

From the sounds and complexity introduced with the other optiont, it is highly likely to be the option to follow

 

[^woody^]

Footing underground will project within the 3m distance

And to a depth lower than the neighbours foundation. Not just be within 3m.

And the planning notices are the ownership declarations (A-D) when making the application

 

[masamune]

Good to learn how involved building astride the boundary is, yet overlooked in most cases I have read about and the PW booklet. Probably because the matter is beyond the scope of the PWA, but I admit one can easily misunderstand it.

edit: removed unnecessary comments, adding more important question,

• do my plans have to be absolutely precise for the PW notice?

i.e the engineer provided the "inclusive" option for astride the boundary but I will not build or serve such notice

• can the engineer re-design the trench fill foundation so that the outside perimeter of the footing remains within my left/right outer walls?

thus eliminating notice to Mr.B and not needing to go under Mr.A's garden?

 

[John D v2.0]

Yes apparently in trench fill you can build right on the edge of the concrete. I queried that for ours and the engineer said for domestic loading it doesn't matter.

 

[masamune]

Yes apparently in trench fill you can build right on the edge of the concrete. I queried that for ours and the engineer said for domestic loading it doesn't matter.

Good to know, I dropped an email to the engineer to ask if we can move the edge. With hindsight I suspect this is the reason he has this type of foundations on the plan...

 

[masamune]

The engineer suggested that footing needs to project at least 50mm from the wall. I guess this falls under PWA...or not

 

[^woody^]

I'd suggest a different engineer then.

Is this wall having no projections at the top?